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Thread: Great singers of Schubert Lieder on record?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Bourdon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamencosketches View Post
    Wasn't Schwarzkopf a Nazi of some sort? Or is it just another situation of "wrong place, wrong time"...? Perhaps I have her confused with someone else. Anyway, I do really like what I've heard of her singing, but I've not heard her Schubert. Nor have I heard Hans Hotter sing Schubert. Going to look into both as those sound great.
    Elizabeth Schwarzkopf was a fervent supporter of National Socialism in the Second World War. She maintained cordial relations with Nazi leaders ....

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  3. #17
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Greatest Wintereisse:

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  4. #18
    Senior Member howlingfantods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamencosketches View Post
    Wasn't Schwarzkopf a Nazi of some sort?
    Yes, very tainted due to her apparent enthusiasm. She joined several organizations, some which were hardly common for women or musicians to join, and she was apparently very plugged in--to the point where there's a belief she was lovers with a very high level SS officer, and even rumors that she had an affair with Goebbels.

    She sanitized her reputation post-war largely by marrying Walter Legge, a highly influential Jewish record producer who's played a part in making her a very extensively recorded artist post-war.

    If you find yourself unable to escape the nagging thought about her past and listen to her performances, I wouldn't blame you. There are certainly artists to listen to who did not join a plethora of Nazi organizations and literally sleep with Nazis.

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  6. #19
    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
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    And we're off again. Enough with the anti-nazi rants already. Who on a thread asking about great singers of Schubert lieder is at all interested in your thoughts DavidA. Give it a rest for a little while or start your own thread on the perfidious influence of nazi-ism on the classical world. There's enough people on this forum who would be interested enough to fill it up - or would there?
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  7. #20
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howlingfantods View Post
    Yes, very tainted due to her apparent enthusiasm. She joined several organizations, some which were hardly common for women or musicians to join, and she was apparently very plugged in--to the point where there's a belief she was lovers with a very high level SS officer, and even rumors that she had an affair with Goebbels.

    She sanitized her reputation post-war largely by marrying Walter Legge, a highly influential Jewish record producer who's played a part in making her a very extensively recorded artist post-war.

    If you find yourself unable to escape the nagging thought about her past and listen to her performances, I wouldn't blame you. There are certainly artists to listen to who did not join a plethora of Nazi organizations and literally sleep with Nazis.
    Interesting that Legge is considered Jewish. Norman Lebrecht contacted me about this point and said he had researched Legge's family tree and there was no Jewish ancestry.

  8. #21
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbebleu View Post
    And we're off again. Enough with the anti-nazi rants already. Who on a thread asking about great singers of Schubert lieder is at all interested in your thoughts DavidA. Give it a rest for a little while or start your own thread on the perfidious influence of nazi-ism on the classical world. There's enough people on this forum who would be interested enough to fill it up - or would there?
    If you actually follow the thread you will find I was answering a question put by another member which I did historically and without bias. Some of us are interested in the facts of history, unpleasant though they might be. I hardly think giving facts is an anti-Nazi rant. If you find fault with the facts that's another matter. But perhaps you don't enjoy facts. And please note other people have commented on this.
    Last edited by DavidA; Jul-02-2019 at 20:15.

  9. #22
    DrMike
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    DFD is great in this repertoire - so much so that it is him that I picture when I think of the Lieder. Another great modern baritone that does well is Matthias Goerne. His album "Erlkönig" on HM is great. For tenors, I really enjoy the modern recordings of Mark Padmore, accompanied by Paul Lewis.

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  11. #23
    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    If you actually follow the thread you will find I was answering a question put by another member which I did historically and without bias. Some of us are interested in the facts of history, unpleasant though they might be. I hardly think giving facts is an anti-Nazi rant. If you find fault with the facts that's another matter. But perhaps you don't enjoy facts. And please note other people have commented on this.
    I have no problem with facts particularly when they bear some relation to the point of this thread. In what wise would Schwarzkopf's political leanings affect her ability to interpret the songs of Schubert. Why is it necessary for some to feel the need to hijack a musical thread to raise some point from the past which any reasonably knowledgeable music fan will be well aware of anyway and doesn't need constant reminding of certain artists and composers shortcomings.

    Looking up Wikipedia would fill you in on Elisabeth Schwarzkopf without the need to insert a comment on her past into a thread ostensibly about musical interpretation. Perhaps those who have raised this matter could have done a little research first! Or perhaps there are other agendas at work? Who can say.
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  12. #24
    Senior Member howlingfantods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbebleu View Post
    I have no problem with facts particularly when they bear some relation to the point of this thread. In what wise would Schwarzkopf's political leanings affect her ability to interpret the songs of Schubert. Why is it necessary for some to feel the need to hijack a musical thread to raise some point from the past which any reasonably knowledgeable music fan will be well aware of anyway and doesn't need constant reminding of certain artists and composers shortcomings.

    Looking up Wikipedia would fill you in on Elisabeth Schwarzkopf without the need to insert a comment on her past into a thread ostensibly about musical interpretation. Perhaps those who have raised this matter could have done a little research first! Or perhaps there are other agendas at work? Who can say.
    I think it's a fair point to bring up an artist's Nazi past, particularly one who was as apparently enthusiastic as Schwarzkopf. I'm not so fond of the conversation when it's applied to artists where the connection is more tenuous but Schwarzkopf was an enthusiastic supporter, and I know I personally find it a little hard to listen to her at times without thinking about what a thoroughly detestable person she was.

  13. #25
    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
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    So where are we on the likes of say Furtwangler, Strauss, Pfitzner and Goodall? Tainted or otherwise. Unlistenable or forgivable? At what point do you ignore their association and concentrate on their artistic merit. Perhaps there should be a thread?!
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  14. #26
    Senior Member howlingfantods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbebleu View Post
    So where are we on the likes of say Furtwangler, Strauss, Pfitzner and Goodall? Tainted or otherwise. Unlistenable or forgivable? At what point do you ignore their association and concentrate on their artistic merit. Perhaps there should be a thread?!
    I'd put Goodall and Schwarzkopf on the very problematic end, Furtwangler, Strauss and Pfitzner on the less problematic end. Goodall and Schwarzkopf were enthusiastic Nazis, the others were reluctant collaborators. I'm not sure why that would be a difficult distinction to draw.

    She was a member of multiple Nazi organizations and was widely believed to have been the lover of a higher up SS officer. I'm not sure why you consider it objectionable for normal minded people to consider that as salient. I still listen to her but I don't blame anyone for going out of their way to avoid performers who were enthusiastic members of the Nazi party.

    And in any case, Flamenco wasn't even saying that they were unable to listen to her, they just asked a factual question which several of us answered in varying degrees of detail. Are we supposed to never mention factual details about these artists? If someone asks as an aside whether Wagner was a dog or cat person, we shouldn't answer because it bears no relation to the details of the thread?
    Last edited by howlingfantods; Jul-04-2019 at 00:31.

  15. #27
    Senior Member wkasimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbebleu View Post
    At what point do you ignore their association and concentrate on their artistic merit?
    When they're dead.

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  17. #28
    Senior Member flamencosketches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howlingfantods View Post
    And in any case, Flamenco wasn't even saying that they were unable to listen to her, they just asked a factual question which several of us answered in varying degrees of detail. Are we supposed to never mention factual details about these artists? If someone asks as an aside whether Wagner was a dog or cat person, we shouldn't answer because it bears no relation to the details of the thread?
    Correct, I was just curious; would have been better off keeping it to myself though!

    In any case, it has been a topic of some debate in popular music over the last couple of decades: "separating the art from the artist"; can we enjoy the music of artists who have done objectionable things? Anyway, with Classical music, this is even bigger of an issue to grapple with. I won't participate in any argument, I just thought it was worth knowing and I asked.

  18. #29
    Senior Member howlingfantods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkasimer View Post
    When they're dead.
    Am I not concentrating on her artistic merits? I said that her recital with Fischer was a classic in the catalogue and is a peerless example of Schubert lieder performance. I'm aware of her unsavory history but I still acknowledge her artistry in this repertoire, but I also don't think the more controversial aspects of artists' lives are forbidden topics for discussion.

  19. #30
    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
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    So basically we are saying that regardless of the thread we should bring up any artists less reputable past? So whenever the name Elisabeth Schwarzkopf is mentioned in say, a Richard Strauss lieder thread, it will be ok to have another reminder of her nazi past. Or really any thread she gets a mention. The same with Goodall, Karajan even, and anyone else who made grave errors of judgement and are on the wrong side of history. That sort of post is going to get real old, real quick. I suppose neophyte listeners want to know these things but as I said before, Wikipedia is lying there just waiting to reveal all the prurient details you would ever need to know.

    Btw I think they are fair game for discussion but on a thread devoted to such a topic, not great Schubert singers.
    Last edited by Barbebleu; Jul-04-2019 at 18:05.
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