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Thread: To the Wagner addicts:

  1. #91
    Senior Member Itullian's Avatar
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    ^^He wrote both.
    When all else fails, listen to Thick as a Brick.

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  3. #92
    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    i don't believe he wrote librettos... well, at least someone helped him.

    a man who created such music just would not have been able to write librettos so complex.

    same for a man who penned such librettos wouldn't have been capable of composing music so grand.
    And your evidence for this is?
    Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate!

  4. #93
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    i don't believe he wrote librettos... well, at least someone helped him.

    a man who created such music just would not have been able to write librettos so complex.

    same for a man who penned such librettos wouldn't have been capable of composing music so grand.
    In all fairness to Wagner, you’re just guessing. With regard to his major works that’s something you could have easily looked up. It was a good move because he didn’t have to put up with wretched and ridiculous librettos like so many other composers had to use. Whether one agrees with them or not, I think he made the right choice because at least they’re involved and intelligent, what he wanted and was satisfied with, though also at times highly controversial. But sometimes it takes controversy to wake people up like art is capable of doing. His librettos also exposed others to the dark side of human nature, which everyone has whether they admit to it or not, because in order to feel alive sometimes you have to break rules, preferably without hurting others.
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Jul-22-2019 at 21:27.
    "That's all Folks!"

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  6. #94
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Wagner not only wrote his own librettos, but to a great extent he conceived words and music simultaneously. Who could possibly have collaborated on works of such vision and originality? Who could have found words to accommodate music of such technical complexity and expressive scope? Who but Wagner himself could have taken the rambling, sprawling romances of medieval literature and boiled them down into such terse, intense dramas? Given the diffuse raw material of old stories passed down in diverse forms, his works exhibit a remarkable clarity of purpose and unity of intention, and represent their composer in a personal way that few other operas do. Whatever his works say is what he meant to say.
    Last edited by Woodduck; Jul-22-2019 at 23:01.

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  8. #95
    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Who could possibly have collaborated on works of such vision and originality?
    Ludwig II of Bavaria, perhaps?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig...wig_and_Wagner

    who could possibly have built a theater for someone else if only to stage own work too?

  9. #96
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    Wagner liked to have as much control as possible over the creative process, hence he wrote his own libretti.

  10. #97
    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
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    So we have on one hand those who think that it would have been better if Wagner hadn't written his own libretti and had someone to help cut them down a bit and those who think he couldn't possibly have written them on his own!!!

    Oh vay!

    Ain't life wonderful.
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  12. #98
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbebleu View Post
    So we have on one hand those who think that it would have been better if Wagner hadn't written his own libretti and had someone to help cut them down a bit and those who think he couldn't possibly have written them on his own!!!

    Oh vay!

    Ain't life wonderful.
    I think most people outside of the Wagner faction think his libretti leave something to be desired.

  13. #99
    Senior Member Itullian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    I think most people outside of the Wagner faction think his libretti leave something to be desired.
    I think people other than Wagner haters think they're genius.
    When all else fails, listen to Thick as a Brick.

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  15. #100
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itullian View Post
    I think people other than Wagner haters think they're genius.

    Interesting this emotive word 'hater' is now used quite freely to describe people from politicians to music lovers. Saying Wagner's libretti were not works of literary genius (which many people would agree they were not) does not make one a 'hater'. Just saying that his literary ability did not match his musical genius. Labelling people 'haters' tends to restrict debate.
    Last edited by DavidA; Jul-23-2019 at 11:29.

  16. #101
    Senior Member WildThing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Interesting this emotive word 'hater' is now used quite freely to describe people from politicians to music lovers. Saying Wagner's libretti were not works of literary genius (which many people would agree they were not) does not make one a 'hater'. Just saying that his literary ability did not match his musical genius. Labelling people 'haters' tends to restrict debate.
    No one here has argued they are works of "literary" genius. Boito's and Da Ponte's libretti aren't works of "literary" genius, either. They are all masterly and effective as texts for musical drama, however.

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  18. #102
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildThing View Post
    No one here has argued they are works of "literary" genius. Boito's and Da Ponte's libretti aren't works of "literary" genius, either. They are all masterly and effective as texts for musical drama, however.
    I think you were missing the irony in my comment. However, some have come pretty close to arguing that. Certainly RW would have done!
    Last edited by DavidA; Jul-23-2019 at 11:58.

  19. #103
    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Wagner's libretti were not works of literary genius
    but they were, at least when compared with the others. Wagner's took it to completely another level.

  20. #104
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    I think most people outside of the Wagner faction think his libretti leave something to be desired.
    1.There is no "Wagner faction."
    2. No one who does not speak German is in a position to know what Wagner's libretti leave to be desired.
    3. Anyone who offers an opinion about an opera libretto without reference to the way its text and music interact - specifically, to how the former supports and enables the latter - is just blowing hot gas.
    Last edited by Woodduck; Jul-23-2019 at 15:17.

  21. #105
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    but they were, at least when compared with the others. Wagner's took it to completely another level.
    Sorry disagree. They cannot compare with da Ponte or Boito imo
    Last edited by DavidA; Jul-23-2019 at 15:48.

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