View Poll Results: Sabbath or Zeppelin?

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  • Sabbath

    21 35.00%
  • Zeppelin

    39 65.00%
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Thread: Zeppelin vs Sabbath

  1. #136
    Senior Member Jacck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kjetil Heggelund View Post
    How many really like metal here?
    I like metal occasionally, but I am no metalhead, ie I do not listen to it regularly. Some metal albums I like are for example
    Judas Priest - Painkiller
    Iron Maiden - The Book Of Souls
    Helloween - Keeper of the seven keys
    Mors Principium Est - Liberation = Termination
    and some Metalica, Megadeth, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest.

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  3. #137
    Senior Member EddieRUKiddingVarese's Avatar
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    Have you tried old australian 1970's heavy metal band Buffalo
    "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"

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  5. #138
    Senior Member Jacck's Avatar
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    I did some more listening to Led Zeppelin and I like their lesser known songs more than their hits. I really can't stand Stairway to Heaven, All of my Love, or even Kashmir, possibly due to overexposure from early age. But some of their lesser known and less melodic songs with a lot of instrumental solos are pretty good. For example Achilles Last Stand I quite enjoy

  6. #139
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    When the Levee Breaks is probably my favourite Led Zeppelin song. They definitely brought a lot to the table on that version. This one is still nice even if a bit generic.

    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Aug-07-2019 at 16:03.
    "But I fear tomorrow I'll be crying..." Peter Sinfield

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  8. #140
    Senior Member Eva Yojimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    "Who were the real kings of 70s metal?" was the original question (as we recall). The true answer is that Led Zeppelin were the real kings of 70s metal, but were themselves not metal. They transcended metal while simultaneously inspiring, triggering, catalyzing that genre among a host of other bands who--shall we say--confused a part of Led Zeppelin's eclectic product with being their whole utterance. It's almost as if Zep perpetrated a massive head fake upon many of their contemporaries and sent them flying off to study metallurgy, while the Zeppelin cruised on far above, heading for many distant destinations.

    An analogous situation might be the case of Dylan. After him come the regional and quasi-imitative American Dudes--Joel, Springsteen, Young, Seger, Mellencamp, Petty--all wonderful and beloved (by me) talents, yet not Dylans. The term that is used for artists like Dylan and Led Zeppelin is sui generis; they are unique.
    Good post in general, but to address the part in bold, I don't think later bands "confused" a part of Zep's eclecticism with being their whole utterance, I think they just felt they could expand on those "parts" better than other parts. It's Isaiah Berlin's fox and the hedgehog parable; Zep was a fox, while a lot of the bands that followed chose to make hedgehogs out of one aspect of Zep's foxiness. The Beatles and their followers were much the same.

    Though I'd also say that some of their followers chose a more fox-like route. Besides the aforementioned Heart, Thin Lizzy were a rather eclectic band who's rather underappreciated these days.

  9. #141
    Senior Member Eva Yojimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kjetil Heggelund View Post
    How many really like metal here?


    If I considered myself an aficionado of any genre it'd be metal. After discovering Iron Maiden around 14 I went down the rabbit hole and, despite my forays into many other genres, I still find myself frequently returning to metal. Even if we exclude Zep and other more classic rock bands (like AC/DC and Hendrix), I still have 10 metal bands in my top 30 musical artists: Iron Maiden, Opeth, Mercyful Fate/King Diamond, Judas Priest, Tool, Death, Black Sabbath, The Gathering, Dream Theater, Emperor, and Fates Warning.

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  11. #142
    Senior Member Eva Yojimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacck View Post
    I did some more listening to Led Zeppelin and I like their lesser known songs more than their hits. I really can't stand Stairway to Heaven, All of my Love, or even Kashmir, possibly due to overexposure from early age. But some of their lesser known and less melodic songs with a lot of instrumental solos are pretty good. For example Achilles Last Stand I quite enjoy
    I like their well-known songs but they definitely have some lesser known ones that I like just as well, if not better. Achilles Last Stand is probably my absolute favorite song from them. Physical Graffiti is my favorite Zep album and it has a number of underrated tracks:



    ^ One of their covers, but as good as evidence as any of how they utterly transformed whatever music they covered, borrowed, stole, or whatever you want to call it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacck View Post
    https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-l...ds-of-all-time
    these rankings are ridiculous. I immediately had to downvote the first five, although among the 50K votes, my vote got lost The more interesting bands start from Nr 6 downwards.
    Seems pretty decent for a fan-voted list, actually. There are better lists, though, from Rolling Stone, VH1, and DigitalDreamDoor if you want to check those out.

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  13. #143
    Senior Member Bwv 1080's Avatar
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    Physical Graffiti and III are my favorites.



    Four Sticks is one of my favorites as well, liked it enough to work up a banjo rendition:


  14. #144
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eva Yojimbo View Post
    Good post in general, but to address the part in bold, I don't think later bands "confused" a part of Zep's eclecticism with being their whole utterance, I think they just felt they could expand on those "parts" better than other parts. It's Isaiah Berlin's fox and the hedgehog parable; Zep was a fox, while a lot of the bands that followed chose to make hedgehogs out of one aspect of Zep's foxiness. The Beatles and their followers were much the same.

    Though I'd also say that some of their followers chose a more fox-like route. Besides the aforementioned Heart, Thin Lizzy were a rather eclectic band who's rather underappreciated these days.
    I'm happy with Berlin's Fox/Hedgehog dualism; glad you brought it up. But I wonder to what degree Zeppelin's metallurgical successors "chose" to focus on that genre, or whether their limitations either of skill or of imagination--or both--constrained the path that they were capable of taking. It may have been metal or...nothing much at all.

  15. #145
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eva Yojimbo View Post


    If I considered myself an aficionado of any genre it'd be metal. After discovering Iron Maiden around 14 I went down the rabbit hole and, despite my forays into many other genres, I still find myself frequently returning to metal. Even if we exclude Zep and other more classic rock bands (like AC/DC and Hendrix), I still have 10 metal bands in my top 30 musical artists: Iron Maiden, Opeth, Mercyful Fate/King Diamond, Judas Priest, Tool, Death, Black Sabbath, The Gathering, Dream Theater, Emperor, and Fates Warning.
    I am not an aficionado of any particular genre in Rock/Pop; I find richly satisfying music most everywhere. However, despite years of massive exposure to Heavy Metal through the agency of my son-in-law, metal for me is one of the least rewarding areas of Rock--especially the heavier metals. Lite Metal--BÖC, Scorpions, the Grunge/Metal alloys--suits me better, though I find isolated nuggets amid the dross, like Queensrÿch's Eyes of a Stranger. But otherwise, Eclecticism Rules!! And to Each his/her/their own.

  16. #146
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Room2201974 View Post
    So if I read a book that is half brilliant and have stolen material, it's still a plagiarised work. And the only recourse for the original author(s) of the stolen material is through the courts. This type of behavior is lower than a snakes belly in a wagon rut. And all Page and Plant had to do was acknowledge the original authorship from the beginning. But oh no, not from those macho s%$thead egos. Led Zeppelin, the China of rock and roll.

    36 songs on the first four albums. 11 rip offs...... That's a pattern that all of us should find inexcusable.
    Faulty analogy, books are not the same things as albums, and when artists sue they sue over specific tracks, not entire albums. Secondly Zeppelin's stolen material is reworked and it is brilliant. Zeppelin I is their most plagiarized record and one of their best (and it is a very original sounding album, no other band sounds like this and the production is ground breaking).

    As others have pointed out great artists steal, this is a fact. Also Zeppelin did credit other artists in some cases and no doubt added to their wealth and recognition. Sure more credit perhaps could have been given on some tracks, but because of how much Zeppelin added to the music in most cases I can see why they felt like they deserved credit too. I don't see this issue as black and white as you do, sorry.

    Another thing I've come to consider is where The Beatles worked with producers and arrangers, Page produced all of Zeppelin's albums, that is just another aspect that makes this band so impressive.

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  18. #147
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    Faulty analogy, books are not the same things as albums, and when artists sue they sue over specific tracks, not entire albums. Secondly Zeppelin's stolen material is reworked and it is brilliant. Zeppelin I is their most plagiarized record and one of their best (and it is a very original sounding album, no other band sounds like this and the production is ground breaking).

    As others have pointed out great artists steal, this is a fact. Also Zeppelin did credit other artists in some cases and no doubt added to their wealth and recognition. Sure more credit perhaps could have been given on some tracks, but because of how much Zeppelin added to the music in most cases I can see why they felt like they deserved credit too. I don't see this issue as black and white as you do, sorry.

    Another thing I've come to consider is where The Beatles worked with producers and arrangers, Page produced all of Zeppelin's albums, that is just another aspect that makes this band so impressive.
    Dazed and Confused was by a lot of opinions the best song on their first album. The whole meat of the song was Holmes', as was all the originality of the song, not Led Zeppelin's. Not related to stealing, but Holmes' high tenor voice is even similar to Plant's, especially near the beginning of the song I could mistake it for Plant's more mellow sound.

    Whole Lotta Love is in some opinions their best song even above Stairway to Heaven. Muddy Waters' version has more variety, and more personality in the singing. All Led Zeppelin did was make hard rock versions of these 2 of their best known songs. It was well done, of course, but very little was added, especially in Whole Lotta Love (I'd say they even took away some. The riff rhythm was the only real difference). Rap artists did more to transform the songs they sampled in my opinion. In terms of real originality and production, Hendrix and the Experience were well ahead of Led Zeppelin, in my opinion. All Along the Watchtower added way more to the original, which I also love cause Dylan had much better delivery. But the production and everything was so great, Dylan praised Hendrix' version more than once.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoqR7ztdTCg
    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Aug-08-2019 at 01:17.
    "But I fear tomorrow I'll be crying..." Peter Sinfield

  19. #148
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    Dazed and Confused was by a lot of opinions the best song on their first album. The whole meat of the song was Holmes', as was all the originality of the song, not Led Zeppelin's. Not related to stealing, but Holmes' high tenor voice is even similar to Plant's, especially near the beginning of the song I could mistake it for Plant's more mellow sound.

    Whole Lotta Love is in some opinions their best song even above Stairway to Heaven. Muddy Waters' version has more variety, and more personality in the singing. All Led Zeppelin did was make hard rock versions of these 2 of their best known songs. It was well done, of course, but very little was added, especially in Whole Lotta Love (I'd say they even took away some. The riff rhythm was the only real difference). Rap artists did more to transform the songs they sampled in my opinion. In terms of real originality and production, Hendrix and the Experience were well ahead of Led Zeppelin, in my opinion. All Along the Watchtower added way more to the original, which I also love cause Dylan had much better delivery. But the production and everything was so great, Dylan praised Hendrix' version more than once.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoqR7ztdTCg
    This post is so off the mark I don't know where to begin. It is as though you are willfully ignoring the aspects of those two songs that make them original just to be contrarian, or something, I don't know its ridiculous, whatever the reason. If I have to explain to you the details of what makes Zeppelin's versions of Dazed and Confused and Whole Lotta Love exceptional tracks far removed from the originals (the riff rhythm was the only difference? Are you kidding me?), forget it.

    As far as All Along the Watchtower and Hendrix talents in general you will not get much argument from me. I think he is far more deserving of the number 4 spot on that top rock bands list posted on this thread than the The Rolling Stones are. The Smiths are another band criminally neglected on such lists, but I digress.
    Last edited by tdc; Aug-08-2019 at 04:30.

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  21. #149
    Senior Member Room2201974's Avatar
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    Led Zeppelin* is a Shakespearean tragedy where the identifiable character flaws are greed and plastercasted egos.

    We don't have this same argument about other creative bands from that era. No one has come forth with multiple claims of intellectual property theft from bands like The Kinks, or The Who, or Buffalo Springfield, or even other bands mining the blues vein like The Allman Brothers. No, we have this argument about Led Zeppelin*, because Plant and Page understood very well how to play the money game of rock and roll. Authorship/copyright claim = money.....big money. Now I can think of one real important reason why you would want to give credit to all the songwriters on a co-authored tune - because it's the right thing to do. And I can think of many reasons, like up to 350 million of them, why Plant and Page consistently could not do the right thing over the course of many years.

    Great "original" rock and roll band my a$$!!!!!!

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mkAfUfA0Kig

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n4zcuNUfdsI

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uzUX_IOXt2E

    Led Zeppelin* is the only band that I know of in rock and roll where the following statement is true: They should have been sued over intellectual property theft more than they were.
    Last edited by Room2201974; Aug-08-2019 at 04:33.
    I wrote a song about dental floss. Did anyone's teeth get cleaner? ~ Frank Zappa

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  23. #150
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Room2201974 View Post
    Led Zeppelin* is a Shakespearean tragedy where the identifiable character flaws are greed and plastercasted egos.
    I think we have a case here of "I don't like these guys, I don't think they don't live up to my moral standards, therefore their music is not good."

    Quote Originally Posted by Room2201974 View Post
    And I can think of many reasons, like up to 350 million of them, why Plant and Page consistently could not do the right thing over the course of many years.
    This comment along with one you made earlier in the thread stating that they "still were borrowing material on their 4th album", leads me to suspect you lack knowledge of the time-line that Zeppelin's albums were released. Zeppelin's first four albums were released between the years 1969 and 1971. So not a lot of time actually passed between Zep I and Zep IV.

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