View Poll Results: Sabbath or Zeppelin?

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  • Sabbath

    21 35.00%
  • Zeppelin

    39 65.00%
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Thread: Zeppelin vs Sabbath

  1. #76
    Senior Member Eva Yojimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    No different today, but manufacturing has improved.

    “Impressionable young fans would therefore do well to avoid John Seabrook’s The Song Machine, an immersive, reflective, and utterly satisfying examination of the business of popular music. It is a business as old as Stephen Foster, but never before has it been run so efficiently or dominated by so few. We have come to expect this type of consolidation from our banking, oil-and-gas, and health-care industries. But the same practices they rely on -- ruthless digitization, outsourcing, focus-group brand testing, brute-force marketing -- have been applied with tremendous success in pop, creating such profitable multinationals as Rihanna, Katy Perry, and Taylor Swift.”

    Excerpted from an Atlantic Magazine article, Hit Charade.
    I can say with certainty that one of these things is not like the others.
    Last edited by Eva Yojimbo; Aug-03-2019 at 14:51.

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  3. #77
    Senior Member Eva Yojimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mollie John View Post
    One way to approach the OP's query is to ask if the following genres and sub-genres owe more to Led Zeppelin or Black Sabbath - (or even Deep Purple for those who consider that it was this particular triumvirate that laid down the path that the others followed).
    While that's a fairly extensive list it does leave out a number of other genres. Still, it would be difficult to say because Sabbath and Zeppelin have both similar and different lineages. Zeppelin's lineage goes more to what would become the mainstream classic 70s rock, which would become arena rock, then mainstream pop/hair-metal in the 80s, but then also on to some Alt. Rock bands in the 90s. They were also an influence on some strains of 70s prog rock rock, especially Rush, and therefore a huge influence on the future developments of that genre. Sabbath were a bigger influence on the more underground metal of the 70s and 80s; Priest, Motorhead, Maiden, Metallica, etc., but none of those bands were singularly influenced by Sabbath because Sabbath weren't doing the speed and dual guitar leads that came to (partly) define the genre, and for that the future metal bands were taking from Purple et al. (like Thin Lizzy) and, later on, punk. Of all metal's sub-genres, doom metal is the only genre that looked explicitly and solely back to Sabbath for influence, almost a way of saying that all the other bands had gotten it wrong by "hybridizing" the sound and that Sabbath had it right all along. Of the two, Zep's influence was broader and more diffuse, and Sabbath's was more limited but profound in what it did influence. You don't get future metal without Paranoid, especially, but you also don't get it (excepting doom metal) without other ingredients. OTOH, I feel future metal could've survived without Zeppelin, but it probably would've been quite different. Would Maiden have found that signature gallop without Achilles' Last Stand? Hard to tell.
    Last edited by Eva Yojimbo; Aug-03-2019 at 14:49.

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  5. #78
    Moderator Art Rock's Avatar
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    Unlike LedZep, Sabbath scored a hit in a German cover version.




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  7. #79
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    EY, I agree mostly with your post above, with the caveat that while many bands were influenced by Zeppelin, almost nobody ever replicated the rich and kaleidoscopic textures of Zeppelin's sonic tapestry behind Plant's vocals. Heart of course began by espousing some of the eclecticism of Zep, and even penned their own Kashmir in Mistral Wind. But Led Zeppelin's sound is unique in that it is rarely if ever (merely) a rhythm track/template to which the vocals/lyrics are fitted. There is always something going on behind Plant on a Zeppelin track, and that something is way more than what one hears on just about any other band's ''equivalent" track. Zeppelin stands (or soars) alone, far above any who assert their debt to the group.

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  9. #80
    Senior Member Bwv 1080's Avatar
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    But one can look at a zeppelin song and find elsewhere the pieces that went into it - Willie Dixon, Bert Jansch etc. what they did with the material they stole (which is what it was) from others was brilliantly remolded, But nothing like the song Black Sabbath had ever existed before 1969

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  11. #81
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwv 1080 View Post
    But one can look at a zeppelin song and find elsewhere the pieces that went into it - Willie Dixon, Bert Jansch etc. what they did with the material they stole (which is what it was) from others was brilliantly remolded, But nothing like the song Black Sabbath had ever existed before 1969
    As Ben Wattenberg, a longtime political aid to president Lyndon Johnson, used to recount, after some pitch had been made to LBJ espousing this or that view or plan or proposal, Johnson's reply often was "Therefore, What?!". The tale has been told innumerable times now that Led Zeppelin stole--and usually extensively reworked (Zeppelinized)--the songs of others. And so what are we supposed to do about it as listeners? "Therefore, What?!". As I've posted numerous times previously, to have been plagiarized by Zeppelin is to have your music exposed to an audience vastly larger and quite possibly allowed to endure far longer than would have occurred had The Muse not so touched it. But let those shocked, Shocked by Zep's impertinence boycott their music entirely. It's their choice, and loss.

  12. #82
    Senior Member Malx's Avatar
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    Coming late to the thread all I'll say is Led Zepplin aren't heavy metal in my view so the answer to the OP has to be Black Sabbath.

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  14. #83
    Senior Member Room2201974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    As Ben Wattenberg, a longtime political aid to president Lyndon Johnson, used to recount, after some pitch had been made to LBJ espousing this or that view or plan or proposal, Johnson's reply often was "Therefore, What?!". The tale has been told innumerable times now that Led Zeppelin stole--and usually extensively reworked (Zeppelinized)--the songs of others. And so what are we supposed to do about it as listeners? "Therefore, What?!". As I've posted numerous times previously, to have been plagiarized by Zeppelin is to have your music exposed to an audience vastly larger and quite possibly allowed to endure far longer than would have occurred had The Muse not so touched it. But let those shocked, Shocked by Zep's impertinence boycott their music entirely. It's their choice, and loss.
    Therefore what? Therefore we recognize as listeners and musicians that Led Zeppelin is NOT the "original" rock and roll band we thought they were. We recognize that stealing from other copyrighted works is theft.....at least according to the U.S. Copyright Laws. And we also recognize that Page and Plant are slimeballs for making folks take them to court, incurring lawyers fees to get what should have been theirs all along. Is not justice delayed justice denied?????? Straight up dudes would have given credit from day one!

    So excuse me if I don't fawn over the Plant and Page show. I have more respect for Mickey Dolenz and Mike Nesmith than I do the rip-off duo.

    If you don't have any skin in the game, then I guess you really don't understand Until It Happens To You like you thought you did!
    I wrote a song about dental floss. Did anyone's teeth get cleaner? ~ Frank Zappa

  15. #84
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Room2201974 View Post
    Therefore what? Therefore we recognize as listeners and musicians that Led Zeppelin is NOT the "original" rock and roll band we thought they were.
    Most of Led Zep's music is original though. Many artists have plagiarized, Zeppelin isn't the first. Many people spin it that because Zep stole some lyrics and the occasional riff, that none of their music is original. Most of it is, the plagiarism charge for their most famous song was thrown out of court. What did The Rain Song plagiarize? TSRTS? Achilles Last Stand, Ten Years Gone? etc. Plagiarizing on some tracks doesn't erase the fact they wrote some of the best and most influential rock songs of all time.

  16. #85
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Room2201974 View Post
    Therefore what? Therefore we recognize as listeners and musicians that Led Zeppelin is NOT the "original" rock and roll band we thought they were. We recognize that stealing from other copyrighted works is theft.....at least according to the U.S. Copyright Laws. And we also recognize that Page and Plant are slimeballs for making folks take them to court, incurring lawyers fees to get what should have been theirs all along. Is not justice delayed justice denied?????? Straight up dudes would have given credit from day one!

    So excuse me if I don't fawn over the Plant and Page show. I have more respect for Mickey Dolenz and Mike Nesmith than I do the rip-off duo.

    If you don't have any skin in the game, then I guess you really don't understand Until It Happens To You like you thought you did!
    You are correct: Neither I nor millions of other listeners have skin in the game--we just listen to the music. Not songwriters, lyricists, mostly not performers. So I can and do approach Led Zeppelin's music with different ears than you. I'd like to think that the issues Lady Gaga addressed in Until it Happens to You are a touch more universal than the ones that so arouse your ire against Zeppelin, but perhaps not; perhaps all sin is equal and to be equally condemned. But I am rebuked--justly rebuked--yet will continue in my sin and enjoy Zeppelin's art, while understanding that for others they are eternally tainted and damned. Ars gratia artis

  17. #86
    Senior Member EddieRUKiddingVarese's Avatar
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    Therefore what? Therefore we recognize as listeners and musicians that Led Zeppelin is NOT the "original" rock and roll band we thought they were. We recognize that stealing from other copyrighted works is theft.....at least according to the U.S. Copyright Laws. And we also recognize that Page and Plant are slimeballs for making folks take them to court, incurring lawyers fees to get what should have been theirs all along. Is not justice delayed justice denied?????? Straight up dudes would have given credit from day one!

    So excuse me if I don't fawn over the Plant and Page show. I have more respect for Mickey Dolenz and Mike Nesmith than I do the rip-off duo.

    If you don't have any skin in the game, then I guess you really don't understand Until It Happens To Youlike you thought you did!
    Here here The Monkeys were an honest rip off show unlike Plant/Page, when Page does I reality show about .. then I might vote for him Boleskine House and Aleister Crowley (jeezs and now his got another one Tower House),no only kidding another forum I'm on has a whole thread entitled jimmy page sucks
    Quote and pic from said thread
    i know, i know.

    i just don't understand.
    "clearly".

    fun riffs to play, but really?


    r e e e e e e e e ally?
    Last edited by EddieRUKiddingVarese; Aug-03-2019 at 22:30.
    "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"

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  19. #87
    Senior Member Room2201974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    Most of Led Zep's music is original though. Many artists have plagiarized, Zeppelin isn't the first. Many people spin it that because Zep stole some lyrics and the occasional riff, that none of their music is original. Most of it is, the plagiarism charge for their most famous song was thrown out of court. What did The Rain Song plagiarize? TSRTS? Achilles Last Stand, Ten Years Gone? etc. Plagiarizing on some tracks doesn't erase the fact they wrote some of the best and most influential rock songs of all time.
    So if I read a book that is half brilliant and have stolen material, it's still a plagiarised work. And the only recourse for the original author(s) of the stolen material is through the courts. This type of behavior is lower than a snakes belly in a wagon rut. And all Page and Plant had to do was acknowledge the original authorship from the beginning. But oh no, not from those macho s%$thead egos. Led Zeppelin, the China of rock and roll.

    36 songs on the first four albums. 11 rip offs...... That's a pattern that all of us should find inexcusable.

    https://liveforlivemusic.com/feature...ic-was-stolen/
    I wrote a song about dental floss. Did anyone's teeth get cleaner? ~ Frank Zappa

  20. #88
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    The Wikipedia entry on Music Plagiarism is interesting reading, especially the section titled "Cases". It seems we must jettison a lot, a whole lot, of popular music, be it Blues, Rock, Pop, as all sin is equally contemptible and inexcusable. A whole lot of plagiarizing goin' on. I admire Room2201974's zeal in eliminating the Led Zeppelin catalog in its entirety from his personal listening, but I cannot share in that zeal, as the results are so darn good--the final product redeems, for me, the sin. Again, Ars gratia artis.

    This discussion reminds me a bit of the Wagner as Anti-Semite arguments: must we jettison Wagner?

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  22. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    The Wikipedia entry on Music Plagiarism is interesting reading, especially the section titled "Cases". It seems we must jettison a lot, a whole lot, of popular music, be it Blues, Rock, Pop, as all sin is equally contemptible and inexcusable. A whole lot of plagiarizing goin' on. I admire Room2201974's zeal in eliminating the Led Zeppelin catalog in its entirety from his personal listening, but I cannot share in that zeal, as the results are so darn good--the final product redeems, for me, the sin. Again, Ars gratia artis.

    This discussion reminds me a bit of the Wagner as Anti-Semite arguments: must we jettison Wagner?
    Or worse yet, Tchaikovsky based on a single off-hand comment in a letter...

    I will happily listen to Led Zeppelin still. Nihil novum sub sole after all.

  23. #90
    Senior Member EddieRUKiddingVarese's Avatar
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    I'll stick to 4'33" Its safer
    "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"

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