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Thread: Wang and Lang

  1. #121
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    I blame the start of the pianomania Toccatas on this guy!

    Last edited by Larkenfield; Aug-26-2019 at 11:24.
    "That's all Folks!"

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Interesting as we were talking about Prokofiev not Schumann!

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    Yes, but the wonderful Lhevinne performance is the Schumann rather than Prokofiev Toccata.
    Well gentlemen, let’s not split hairs!
    Last edited by Mandryka; Aug-26-2019 at 11:28.

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  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christabel View Post
    Compare Wang with this from Argerich - it's actually GOING SOMEWHERE dark and ominous:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6AhHBu_A_U

    But this is even better - and more surprising!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGlXRW7GLsY

    Amazing. Now we are judging "sound world" by comparing recordings made in completely different environment and circumstances. One is a live recording that is overly cleansed by the production company to rid of ambient noise and tweaked in favor of clarity over everything else; on top of that it is heard re-encoded on YouTube from a 128kbps or 96kbps source so the sound is irretrievably degraded. The other one is a studio recording made back when DG still gives a damn and was heard re-encoded on YouTube probably directly from the disc itself. Now you want to judge the "sound world" of the two performances? Get real.
    Last edited by hsyfz; Aug-26-2019 at 12:41.

  5. #124
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hsyfz View Post
    Amazing. Now we are judging "sound world" by comparing recordings made in completely different environment and circumstances. One is a live recording that is overly cleansed by the production company to rid of ambient noise and tweaked in favor of clarity over everything else; on top of that it is heard re-encoded on YouTube from a 128kbps or 96kbps source so the sound is irretrievably degraded. The other one is a studio recording made back when DG still gives a damn and was heard re-encoded on YouTube probably directly from the disc itself. Now you want to judge the "sound world" of the two performances? Get real.
    It’s the technique that’s being judged and not the sound quality of the upload, and the interpretations can still be easily heard.
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Aug-26-2019 at 19:18.
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  7. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    It’s the technique that’s being judged and not the sound quality of the upload, and the interpretations can still be easily heard.
    It's the technique that's being judged? Then why was he talking about the "bland sound world"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christabel View Post
    It is lacking the frenetic, demonic element we often associate with that work and has a rather bland sound world:
    Speaking of technique, how do you judge between a live performance that is an encore played after a difficult concerto (Prokofiev 3rd), and a studio recording that is recorded multiple times and potentially stitched up? Even so, contrary to his claim that Wang's performance is "lacking the frenetic, demonic element", to my ears Argerich's performance is clearly tamer in comparison.

    And no, the interpretation cannot be easily heard, not when the dynamic range is severely compressed, and phrasing details, especially the articulations are grotesquely distorted by the harsh post processing.
    Last edited by hsyfz; Aug-26-2019 at 20:24.

  8. #126
    Senior Member howlingfantods's Avatar
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    The funny thing is that with the sexism and racism endemic to classical music audiences (e.g. this entire thread), Asian and women musicians probably need to be better than European or American and male counterparts to make an equivalent impact on the world stage.
    Last edited by howlingfantods; Aug-27-2019 at 00:00.

  9. #127
    Senior Member Enthusiast's Avatar
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    The London Proms this year are featuring quite a number of "minority" (mostly black) soloists and conductors and a great many female conductors. Many (certainly more than half) of the concerts they have televised this year have had female conductors (including the opening night). Meanwhile, even the Argerich and Barenboim concert didn't get televised although Simon Rattle has been. I record them and haven't seen/heard many of them yet but get the impression of great quality music making and the concerts do certainly seem to be drawing good audiences.

  10. #128
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    Yes, you are right. Although I'm not going to push the ignore button, I pledge to ignore all his postings.
    One person's pledge is another's reflex.
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Aug-27-2019 at 14:02.

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  11. #129
    Senior Member Iota's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hsyfz View Post
    Speaking of technique, how do you judge between a live performance that is an encore played after a difficult concerto (Prokofiev 3rd), and a studio recording that is recorded multiple times and potentially stitched up? Even so, contrary to his claim that Wang's performance is "lacking the frenetic, demonic element", to my ears Argerich's performance is clearly tamer in comparison.
    More or less my exact thoughts on comparing the Wang and Argerich. There's a neurotic, unsettled edge to the Wang that seems absent in the Argerich. Horowitz was always capable of making the piano sound as if it was on the verge of a neurotic meltdown, when in the mood.

  12. #130
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    If you play, imitate Lang Lang’s mannerisms and see if they help you.

    I would rank this concerto below all the great concerti because of its mundane ideas and it's very repetitive. Where’s the 'Mozart' and his soaring gifts? My fellow musicians think I'm crazy..

    here’s Brendel;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDitJ0WLhDY

    "Of the Mozart piano concertos, this one has the most complete scoring. (It is the only one scored for both oboes and clarinets.) It is also the only late Mozart piano concerto in which the soloist plays after the cadenza in the first movement, here adorning an orchestral argument based on the extremely chromatic opening theme of the work with arpeggios, all the way through to the quiet close. It is one of only two minor-key piano concertos (the other being No. 20 in D Minor), and one of only three concertos where the first movement is in 3/4 time (the others being No. 11 and No. 14). The whole performance lasts roughly 30 minutes. The concerto has long been considered one of Mozart's greatest works. Arthur Hutchings has described it as the most "concerted" of all the concertos (i.e. the most integrated). Girdlestone has also effectively claimed it as the greatest. Ludwig van Beethoven took particular inspiration for his own music from this concerto. Richard Strauss played his own cadenza for the concerto in 1885. The work has obvious musical antecedents in Joseph Haydn's Symphony No. 78, also in C minor and from which the Concerto's opening statement is drawn. Jonathan Stock has analysed in detail Mozart's use of woodwind timbre in the instrumentation of the concerto's slow movement. Chris Goertzen has mapped the structure of the slow movement. The concerto was first published in parts in 1800. The manuscript of the concerto resides at the Royal College of Music."
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  13. #131
    Senior Member DaveM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post


    If you play, imitate Lang Lang’s mannerisms and see if they help you.

    I would rank this concerto below all the great concerti because of its mundane ideas and it's very repetitive. Where’s the 'Mozart' and his soaring gifts? My fellow musicians think I'm crazy..

    here’s Brendel;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDitJ0WLhDY

    "Of the Mozart piano concertos, this one has the most complete scoring. (It is the only one scored for both oboes and clarinets.) It is also the only late Mozart piano concerto in which the soloist plays after the cadenza in the first movement, here adorning an orchestral argument based on the extremely chromatic opening theme of the work with arpeggios, all the way through to the quiet close. It is one of only two minor-key piano concertos (the other being No. 20 in D Minor), and one of only three concertos where the first movement is in 3/4 time (the others being No. 11 and No. 14). The whole performance lasts roughly 30 minutes. The concerto has long been considered one of Mozart's greatest works. Arthur Hutchings has described it as the most "concerted" of all the concertos (i.e. the most integrated). Girdlestone has also effectively claimed it as the greatest. Ludwig van Beethoven took particular inspiration for his own music from this concerto. Richard Strauss played his own cadenza for the concerto in 1885. The work has obvious musical antecedents in Joseph Haydn's Symphony No. 78, also in C minor and from which the Concerto's opening statement is drawn. Jonathan Stock has analysed in detail Mozart's use of woodwind timbre in the instrumentation of the concerto's slow movement. Chris Goertzen has mapped the structure of the slow movement. The concerto was first published in parts in 1800. The manuscript of the concerto resides at the Royal College of Music."
    The comparison of the two performances is difficult, if not unfair, given that the Lang Lang recording sounds as if it’s mono or is very ‘thin’ stereo, while the Brendel recording is broad-stage stereo. Lang Lang’s histrionics do distract especially with Mozart, but like the old Liberace days, the ‘common folk’ seem to like it.
    Last edited by DaveM; Aug-27-2019 at 17:52.

  14. #132
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    The comparison of the two performances is difficult, if not unfair, given that the Lang Lang recording sounds as if it’s mono or is very ‘thin’ stereo, while the Brendel recording is broad-stage stereo. Lang Lang’s histrionics do distract especially with Mozart, but like the old Liberace days, the ‘common folk’ seem to like it.
    I don't think Lang Lang can play any other way. He was taught (from a very different tradition) to express with his whole body etc. etc.

    As a young boy Mr. Brendel was probably admonished no no no mustn't do that..

    Playing music is devilishly difficult. I don't tell my students anything about such superficialities.
    Last edited by Luchesi; Aug-27-2019 at 21:23.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes - but the preservation of fire!
    Gustav Mahler

  15. #133
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    I don't think Lang Lang can play any other way. He was taught (from a very different tradition) to express with his whole body etc. etc.

    As a young boy Mr. Brendel was probably admonished no no no mustn't do that..

    Playing music is devilishly difficult. I don't tell my students anything about such superficialities.
    As Glenn Gould couldn't play without humming

  16. #134
    Senior Member Bulldog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    One person's pledge is another's reflex.
    I figured it would be easy to honor my pledge because the guy would be kicked out before long - and he's already gone.

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  18. #135
    Senior Member Baron Scarpia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    I don't think Lang Lang can play any other way. He was taught (from a very different tradition) to express with his whole body etc. etc.

    As a young boy Mr. Brendel was probably admonished no no no mustn't do that..

    Playing music is devilishly difficult. I don't tell my students anything about such superficialities.
    I remember reading an interview where Brendel said that he felt his gestures while playing were part of the presentation. Obviously not of the flamboyant type as Lang Lang.

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