Likes Likes:  0
Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Full harmonic analysis, Is is accurate?

  1. #1
    Senior Member caters's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    224
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Full harmonic analysis, Is is accurate?

    So, I have finished analyzing Rondo a Capriccio. I found most of it simple to analyze. Those sequences that I got stuck on, I got stuck on because of the accented non-chord tones that Beethoven uses. But other than that, I found the analysis to be pretty simple to do. A lot of secondary dominants are used here. A lot of these are functional(so like the secondary tonic shows up right after the secondary dominant most of the time) but some are non-functional, only there as part of a sequence. Measure 57 is where a bit of ambiguity starts. I decided to analyze it in Bb until it made no more sense in Bb(which would be at measure 68) and then notate it as a pivot to Gm.

    This is what I mean by the ambiguity:




    This is how I would analyze that passage, as starting in Bb and then pivoting to G minor.

    This is how an expert commented that it should be analyzed:




    The expert thinks that the entire passage should be analyzed in G minor simply because it starts with a G minor harmony. I disagree with this reasoning of his.

    Here is my reasoning behind analysing bars 57-68 in Bb instead of Gm:

    Yes, you would expect to hear Bb major chords in a G minor piece. But in a G minor piece, if there is a resolution to III, that typically is a modulation to Bb and thus is truly a resolution to I, not III. VI and VII on the other hand can be resolved to without a sense of modulation in a minor key, just like how in a major key, you can resolve to vi without actually modulating to vi. So it just makes more sense to me for bars 57-68 to be in Bb, regardless of whether that means there is a modulation later on or not. And besides, Rondo a Capriccio has frequent modulations anyway.

    Also, typically, in a minor key, III does not get inverted whatsoever. It usually is in root position. Here, if the whole passage is analyzed as being in Gm, you get all 3 inversions. There are only 2 chords(3 if you extend it to seventh chords) that typically get all the inversions. Those being I and V in major and i and V in minor(and also vii°7 if you extend it to seventh chords). Other chords like IV or vi typically only get 2 of the 3 inversions and a few others like III typically aren't inverted at all. So to see all 3 inversions of what is supposedly III in Gm makes me doubt that it is in Gm at all and instead think that it is in Bb.
    The short tonicizations I didn't bother notating as key changes and instead I decided to notate them as secondary dominants in the previous key. That is, except for some at the end where I'm not sure if it is a tonicization or a modulation, so I notated it as a modulation as a precautionary measure. A lot of the ending measures are simply I V I alternations with a lot of non-chord tones. Another frequent secondary chord I found is secondary diminished sevenths, usually vii°7/V leading either to V or to vii°7, which then leads to I or V depending on the previous chord. I saw a couple of augmented sixth chords, both German augmented sixths. The first one resolves to the dominant and is then respelt as a dominant seventh chord. The second one leads directly to a new tonic by keeping one of its notes as a common tone and resolving the other 3.

    So here is my analysis of Rondo a Capriccio. Do you think my analysis is accurate? Anything you would change about it?

    Rondo a Capriccio.pdf
    Rondo a Capriccio.mp3

  2. #2
    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,797
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default

    B66+B70 have a much simpler explanation on the last quaver of the bar. The overall impression on that quaver is of a dominant 7th, the 7th itself used as a passing note in the bass. In B66 the chord is the mediant with a b7 (in Gminor) in 3rd inversion because the actual b flat note, although not on that particular beat is still implied because aurally, it is heard as such.
    Last edited by mikeh375; Aug-27-2019 at 12:48.

  3. #3
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    5,379
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default

    I think your expert is right about the passage beginning at m.57: Analyze the whole bit in G minor. The section is a small binary pattern with a standard move to III at the double bar and the return to G minor in the second part. However, the chord on the last beat of m.63 is V7/III, not VII.

    I haven't reviewed your whole analysis (I already gave my analysis of a later passage when you asked in another post about its diminished chords), but the first 150 measures or so is pretty accurate. The only major problem is the passage from 107-130. Here, generally speaking, you only need one Roman numeral every two measures. It's silly to analyze every eighth note as a change of chord or inversion. For example, mm. 109-110 is all V with passing notes. By naming every tree you are failing to see the forest.

    Your frogs make me shudder with intolerable loathing and I shall be miserable for the rest of my life remembering them.
    — Mikhail Bulgakov, The Fatal Eggs

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
    — Basil Valentine

  4. #4
    Senior Member Bwv 1080's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    1,023
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    While harmonic analysis always has some ambiguity, Its clearly Bb - in 57 Gm is a sub for I, followed by a ii-V-I in Bb then a strong cadence in Bb. A strong cadence on III makes no sense

    There is no cadence, let alone a leading tone which would imply Gm. The next phrase, after the repeat, begins a transition to Bm

  5. #5
    Senior Member Vasks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    4,109
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    25

    Default

    LOL @ "Expert". There is no way to analyze mss 57-64 except to do so in B-flat major. There is not one leading tone F# to suggest G minor and the cadence at the 1st ending is a PAC in B-flat.
    "Music in any generation is not what the public thinks of it but what the musicians make of it"....Virgil Thomson

  6. #6
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    5,379
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasks View Post
    LOL @ "Expert". There is no way to analyze mss 57-64 except to do so in B-flat major. There is not one leading tone F# to suggest G minor and the cadence at the 1st ending is a PAC in B-flat.
    The F#s come after the double bar, 70-72. The binary pattern of two phrases begins on G minor and firmly establishes the key at the end of the second part.

    Your frogs make me shudder with intolerable loathing and I shall be miserable for the rest of my life remembering them.
    — Mikhail Bulgakov, The Fatal Eggs

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
    — Basil Valentine

  7. #7
    Senior Member Vasks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    4,109
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    25

    Default

    Yes, the next phrase (66-73) modulates. I was only looking at the first one. There's no way I can accept calling mss 57-64 being in G minor.
    "Music in any generation is not what the public thinks of it but what the musicians make of it"....Virgil Thomson

  8. #8
    Senior Member Bwv 1080's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    1,023
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Yes that B section is its own little binary form with the B'A' part in Bb and the B'B' part in Gm, the Gm is really part of a modulation back to G major for the return of the A section


    (and what would be helpful is to label the formal sections ABACA etc)
    Last edited by Bwv 1080; Aug-27-2019 at 23:07.

  9. #9
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    5,379
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasks View Post
    Yes, the next phrase (66-73) modulates. I was only looking at the first one. There's no way I can accept calling mss 57-64 being in G minor.
    I agree about the passage in isolation and don't see anything wrong with analyzing it in B-flat. But I hear it as part of a standard binary pattern, like a little minore variation in the larger structure. If a scherzo began this way, one would without qualms say the scherzo is in G minor and analyze the whole passage that way. Other factors that make me want to just analyze it all in G minor are the fact that minor mode nearly always "borrows" heavily from the relative major — and a general disdain for fussiness about key changes.

    Your frogs make me shudder with intolerable loathing and I shall be miserable for the rest of my life remembering them.
    — Mikhail Bulgakov, The Fatal Eggs

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
    — Basil Valentine

  10. #10
    Senior Member Bwv 1080's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    1,023
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    I agree about the passage in isolation and don't see anything wrong with analyzing it in B-flat. But I hear it as part of a standard binary pattern, like a little minore variation in the larger structure. If a scherzo began this way, one would without qualms say the scherzo is in G minor and analyze the whole passage that way. Other factors that make me want to just analyze it all in G minor are the fact that minor mode nearly always "borrows" heavily from the relative major — and a general disdain for fussiness about key changes.
    That does not make any sense to me. After the g minor chord, the rest of the phrase is two very strong Bb cadences, Beethoven would have been hard pressed to establish Bb any stronger than he did there with a repeated ii-V-I progression. Nothing there establishes Gm

  11. #11
    Senior Member Vasks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    4,109
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    25

    Default

    I have no problem with alternative analysis, as music is an art not a science. But for me it is hard to accept m.63's cadential six-four chord as a III chord.
    "Music in any generation is not what the public thinks of it but what the musicians make of it"....Virgil Thomson

  12. #12
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Ford Nation
    Posts
    5,930
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Clearly Bb to my ears. Measures 64 and 65 sound to be in the tonic. Also the 7th degree's (F's) aren't raised to form the harmonic minor scale.
    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Aug-28-2019 at 19:27.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

  13. #13
    Senior Member Bwv 1080's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    1,023
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Also the measure preceding 57 is a strong cadence in G, the key of the A section and the overall piece. The Gm, as the parallel minor, serves a pivot before modulating to Bb for the B section

  14. #14
    Senior Member Vasks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    4,109
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwv 1080 View Post
    Also the measure preceding 57 is a strong cadence in G, the key of the A section and the overall piece. The Gm, as the parallel minor, serves a pivot before modulating to Bb for the B section
    LOL! I only looked at what was posted. You expected me to look at the whole piece???
    "Music in any generation is not what the public thinks of it but what the musicians make of it"....Virgil Thomson

  15. #15
    Senior Member caters's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    224
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasks View Post
    LOL! I only looked at what was posted. You expected me to look at the whole piece???
    Well, that is what I expected, since I attached the entire harmonic analysis of the piece to the OP. I don't know if anybody else expected that, but I know I did.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •