Page 24 of 24 FirstFirst ... 142021222324
Results 346 to 355 of 355

Thread: Will Atonal Compositions Last Centuries like Past Works?

  1. #346
    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    405
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Other values are in play. Maybe suspense, or a sense of mystery, or the feeling of creation in progress... Actually order and disorder are constantly dancing together in the universe, and art acknowledges that in various ways. Order is still the most essential value, though; it's the first source of aesthetic pleasure. It's the triumph of life, of something over nothing.
    It's incumbent on the creative will to impose said order for those very reasons you've cited Woodduck, including, and often most fundamentally, aesthetic pleasure. A composer will choose and execute what he likes to hear and do with material, in that there is no choice.
    One can somewhat fancifully liken the imposition of order to rebelling against the Second Law as you imply, i.e. an attempt to freeze in place order, forever keeping it immune from increased entropy and in the process preserving an essence of the creator and symbolising a resistance to and defiance of, mortality - your "triumph of life".

    Disorder (may I say dissonance, rhythmic and/or tonal?) is a relative concept especially in the minds of a creative I'd say. One can use it as a foil or one can accept it as the norm. Familiarity with any material at the nascent and subsequent stages during composition has the potential to skew perceptions of what the common definitions of disorder (dissonance!) can be - resistance and inhibition is relaxed with familiarity and once potential avenues of progress are glimpsed, then the sense of creative adventure begins. A narrative is eventually constructed, one that, even in a completely dissonant environment, will exploit conceptual opposites, if only in the mind and ear of the composer.

    When a composer likes disorder, creative options are greatly enhanced and the journey's breadth greatly widened imv. The question as always is whether or not he/she leaves enough crumbs for the listener to follow.
    Last edited by mikeh375; Today at 10:32.

  2. Likes Strange Magic, samm liked this post
  3. #347
    Senior Member Enthusiast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    5,419
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Order. ..................
    Reminds me of the Speaker in our British parliament. He routinely shouts "order" when the MPs are misbehaving and not respecting each other.

    (For the record, I don't think "order" in music is objectively verifiable as some people recognise patterns and order where others hear only mess and chaos. And - I do agree with Science - an absence of order (or the appearance of that absence) can also be a very effective aspect of some music (for some reason I have an accurate memory of the snare drum in Nielsen's 5th playing in my head).

  4. #348
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Nova Caesarea
    Posts
    4,323
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Order. ..................
    This I can agree with, with the the understanding that, by affirming that "order", "pattern", "predictability" are key defining inherent properties of Art, then the term "Art" to many minds cannot any longer apply to a population of objects, events, entities involving entire or large measures of disorder, non-order, rapidly increasing entropy, aleatorism, randomness, white noise, static, Brownian motion. Or it will it apply on a graded scale? Jackson Pollock, etc. off the boat and into the water? How will this focus on order play into our discussion so far?

  5. #349
    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    405
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiast View Post
    Reminds me of the Speaker in our British parliament. He routinely shouts "order" when the MPs are misbehaving and not respecting each other.

    (For the record, I don't think "order" in music is objectively verifiable as some people recognise patterns and order where others hear only mess and chaos. And - I do agree with Science - an absence of order (or the appearance of that absence) can also be a very effective aspect of some music (for some reason I have an accurate memory of the snare drum in Nielsen's 5th playing in my head).
    Funnily enough he's also been prone to shouting..."Division, clear the house" of late...apt?...

  6. Likes Enthusiast, samm liked this post
  7. #350
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Nova Caesarea
    Posts
    4,323
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Because individuals vary greatly in their acceptance of disorder within art, the case for the primacy of individualist, personal, "subjective" aesthetics is made yet more compelling.
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Today at 09:44.

  8. Likes Enthusiast, mikeh375 liked this post
  9. #351
    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    405
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    Because individuals vary greatly in their acceptance of disorder within art, the case for the primacy of individualist, personal, "subjective" aesthetics is made yet more compelling.
    I agree for sure, especially from my perspective. One could comfortably suggest that what you say was a (the) motivator responsible for the 19thC drive toward unique expression and the 20th and 21stC fault line.
    Last edited by mikeh375; Today at 10:31.

  10. Likes Strange Magic liked this post
  11. #352
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Nova Caesarea
    Posts
    4,323
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiast View Post
    They were in two lists (but lots of other works could be substituted) -

    Berg - Wozzeck, Violin Concerto
    Schoenberg - String Trio and Piano Concerto
    Messiaen - Quartet for the End of Time, Vingt Regards

    But I no longer think anyone who believes there are no atonal masterpieces is going to attempt an explanation for their view. The only response has been to request me to justify the choice. I have more or less done that and, of course, the "objectivists" (who are also the anti-atonalists) feel my view is too subjective. Fair enough, it was (informed but subjective). The discussion continues to be another one that is abstract and philosophical. I take away from this that those who dislike and even feel angry about atonal music have recognised that their opinion is entirely subjective and no more true than the view that there are many atonal masterpieces.
    I believe we have a modus vivendi here. You and those in the atonalist community who share your list of masterpieces (there may be atonalists who do not) can have masterpieces with pride and a clear conscience. Adherents to my view of the primacy and validity of one's unique, individual aesthetics can willingly grant (from our distance and at no real effort) that freedom to you in exchange for your willingness to have some of us reject your masterpieces--or anybody's masterpieces--in part or in whole. De gustibus......
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Today at 10:09.

  12. #353
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Sedona
    Posts
    4,004
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default

    The problem is that certain masterpieces of non-tonality (I dislike the word "atonal") are not masterpieces of tonality, and that's what they've had to work against for some listeners. But here are the labels again where something could still excellent, masterfully well done, and worth hearing without it having to be considered a masterpiece in the traditional sense like in a previous century. Some of the moderns were out to destroy those standards and now some who enjoy the music want to resuscitated them again rather than to forget them and leave them buried in the dust. In some modern pieces it's difficult if not impossible to even know if those works are being played accurately or correctly, and that can cause a distrust of the music or the performers. But I generally trust them even if I feel they are misrepresenting or misinterpreting the composer.
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Today at 10:25.
    "That's all Folks!"

  13. #354
    Senior Member samm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    139
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    (Fwiw, I find it interesting that Asian cultures have absorbed Western European classical music to the extent they have. IMO, there is a special significance -that goes well beyond simple subjectivity- of this kind of cross-culture attraction and acceptance.)
    I fear that a good deal of that is about a perception of a prestige culture, rather than just recognition of inherent artistic value.

    Cynical, but true I think.

  14. Likes science liked this post
  15. #355
    Senior Member science's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Eastern and Northern
    Posts
    15,901
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    51

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    No thanks, Mr. science. I don't submit to "tests" and passive-aggressive little "gotcha" games.

    Do you disagree with my statement? Do you have a different idea? If so, why don't you just offer it, and I'll consider its merits, as I hope you'll consider the merits of mine.

    It's past my bedtime, so I'm quitting for tonight. You have eight hours to think about what you're up to here and consider whether it's productive or respectful. I have doubts about both.
    I don't think you have doubts - you've made up your mind!

    You're the one claiming to have objective aesthetic insights. The burden of proof is on you.

    My position is obvious: aesthetic pleasure is subjective, and we should enjoy our differences without rancor.

    Sure, we can study people's aesthetic responses and if we wanted to we could probably create algorithms that would accurately predict how much a given person or group of people will like a certain work or tradition of art. But that is descriptive, not prescriptive.

    And therefore people who don't like modern music are wrong to insult people who do, and people who do like it are wrong to insult people who don't.

    You can say that people like me just don't have the kind of aesthetic insight that people like you have, but before I bow to your superiority, I want to see the evidence.
    Liberty for wolves is death to the lambs.

Page 24 of 24 FirstFirst ... 142021222324

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •