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Thread: Will Atonal Compositions Last Centuries like Past Works?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwv 1080 View Post
    Atonaphobia is a treatable condition. While we are not yet advanced far enough as a society to recognize the benefits of involuntary commitments to re-education camps, a regime of extensive Freudian psychotherapy, regular Desoxyn injections and repeated listening to Gruppen can help overcome this crippling neurosis.
    That's okay. Don't need the conversion therapy. I proudly celebrate my Baroquosexuality.

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  3. #122
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwv 1080 View Post
    Atonaphobia is a treatable condition. While we are not yet advanced far enough as a society to recognize the benefits of involuntary commitments to re-education camps, a regime of extensive Freudian psychotherapy, regular Desoxyn injections and repeated listening to Gruppen can help overcome this crippling neurosis.
    Atonaphobia treatment for the rich! The huddled poor can't even get treatment through Medicaid. Their only recourse is to listen to atonal music until their ears stop bleeding...or not.


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  5. #123
    Senior Member isorhythm's Avatar
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    Late to this thread, but clearly some atonal music has already "lasted." This year the Met is doing Wozzeck and the NY Phil is doing Erwartung. Lots of people will happily buy tickets to these concerts.

    I tend to agree that calling something a "masterpiece" implies a reasonably broad appeal, but it's not easy to define what that is. We have no trouble speaking of classical masterpieces despite the fact that classical music as a whole is a niche interest and these masterpieces are unknown to the vast majority of people living or dead. No one would bat an eye if someone referred to masterpieces of death metal or free jazz, despite these also being niche interests.

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    Senior Member DaveM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwv 1080 View Post
    has lasted 1.16 centuries, hard to see how anyone cant like this, other than a pathological atonaphobe

    I wish that the atonalists (new word, seems to fit) could be just a little more objective now and then.
    Last edited by DaveM; Sep-11-2019 at 00:17.

  8. #125
    Senior Member Gallus's Avatar
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    I was listening to Gombert's motet In te Domine speravi while I came across this thread, and the question struck me as a funny one. If sacred Renaissance polyphony has apparently not lasted the centuries because Mahler is more popular, or has not produced any 'masterpieces' because "not a broad enough audience listens to it", then I quite frankly don't give a single **** about these ridiculous assertions.

    Now I think I will go listen to Schoenberg's violin concerto performed by Hilary Hahn.

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  10. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by isorhythm View Post
    We have no trouble speaking of classical masterpieces despite the fact that classical music as a whole is a niche interest and these masterpieces are unknown to the vast majority of people living or dead.
    By those standards, the same could be said for Shakespeare, let alone Milton or Keats.

    I think this repeated assertion that classical music is only a "niche" interest is clichéd nonsese. But let's just say, hypothecally, that 3% is correct. I think that figure is pulled out of thin air (or other places) but let's just say it's correct. Given the world's current population, that means that the equivalent of the population of the entire United States listens to classical music.

    Just sayin'.

  11. #127
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwv 1080 View Post
    Atonaphobia is a treatable condition. While we are not yet advanced far enough as a society to recognize the benefits of involuntary commitments to re-education camps, a regime of extensive Freudian psychotherapy, regular Desoxyn injections and repeated listening to Gruppen can help overcome this crippling neurosis.
    As a regime of Freudian psychotherapy would leave everyone in a state of complete neurosis, I suggest a walk in the park instead, accompanied by Beethoven's pastoral symphony or Vivaldi's Four Seasons, while those who would devote themselves to atonality worship at that particular exclusive shine of the elect and leave the rest of us to enjoy life in undisturbed and blissful ignorance!
    Last edited by DavidA; Sep-11-2019 at 14:03.

  12. #128
    Senior Member isorhythm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtpoet View Post
    By those standards, the same could be said for Shakespeare, let alone Milton or Keats.

    I think this repeated assertion that classical music is only a "niche" interest is clichéd nonsese. But let's just say, hypothecally, that 3% is correct. I think that figure is pulled out of thin air (or other places) but let's just say it's correct. Given the world's current population, that means that the equivalent of the population of the entire United States listens to classical music.

    Just sayin'.
    It would shock me if it was anything close to 3% of the world's population.

    But it's beside the point - I think you've acknowledged that mass appeal isn't really the deciding factor. Gallus raises a good point in referring to early music. Gombert's Magnificat's are masterpieces, but they've been heard, relatively speaking, by virtually no one. Quite a few atonal pieces have more mass appeal.

    I've seen lots of people on this forum point to popularity or lack thereof when it's convenient, but I don't think anyone really believes it's all that important - unless they're willing to bite the bullet and admit that the masterpieces of the classical canon can be found on The All-Time Best Classical Hits for Relaxation Volume 3 or whatever.

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  14. #129
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Will Atonal Compositions Last Centuries like Past Works?

    No, because "history" as we knew it is dead. Welcome to the twenty-first century. You want mass appeal? The Kardashians.

    "History" is only a theme-park, a place to visit. Everything moves too fast, now, for there to be any continuation of "history." Everything is instantaneous. There's been a big paradigm shift.

    Instead of traveling down "history" as a big long scroll of narrative, we are are now at the center of a still point, and "history" scrolls by us, as a continuous instant of "now" with no foreseeable end, and no beginning.

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    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Will Atonal Compositions Last Centuries like Past Works?

    No, because "history" as we knew it is dead. Welcome to the twenty-first century. You want mass appeal? The Kardashians.

    "History" is only a theme-park, a place to visit. Everything moves too fast, now, for there to be any continuation of "history." Everything is instantaneous. There's been a big paradigm shift.

    Instead of traveling down "history" as a big long scroll of narrative, we are are now at the center of a still point, and "history" scrolls by us, as a continuous instant of "now" with no foreseeable end, and no beginning.
    Atonal music will last as long as the New Stasis lasts. Beyond that, I can see several "foreseeable" ends to history, none of them pleasant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isorhythm View Post
    But it's beside the point - I think you've acknowledged that mass appeal isn't really the deciding factor.
    No, I never wrote that it was (and besides, I wrote broad appeal over time). But it is a factor. It amuses that there's such an allergic reaction to this assertion. I think it's because it tends to suggest that personal preference isn't really the deciding factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    [h=1]You want mass appeal? The Kardashians.
    Let's wait and see how their reputations lasts over time. There were a lot of very mediocre composers who were considered the pinnacle of accomplishment in their own time.

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    Senior Member Simon Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    It does? Haa ha aaaa.... What is Ferneyhough's "masterpiece"? Are they gonna use the disco version of it in the next season of "Judge Judy" as the theme?
    It absolutely does apply.

    Atonal composers have just as much training, knowledge of musical theory, imagination, passion for composing as Beethoven.

    An argument can be made that they may even have more of these. After all, they have all the theory of the past to glean from, as well as everything learned since.

    As far as your comment about Ferneyhough's "masterpiece" goes. I am not a fan of Ferneyhough, so I won't comment. But why try to deride his music, by appealing to the worst common denominator, as creating a disco version of it? The fact that a disco version of music that is so metrically and rhythmically complex will not be made, is a big plus.
    Last edited by Simon Moon; Sep-11-2019 at 22:34.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

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  20. #134
    Senior Member Jacck's Avatar
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    who are The Kardashians? The name seems to pop up from time to time, but I never bothered to google them. I guess I am better off not knowing.

    concerning atonal compositions. Of course they will last. They are already part of the canon of classical music and nothing is going to erase them. The less memorable and famous compositions and composers will fade into oblivion with time, but a couple of great names such as Schoenberg, Boulez, Ligeti, Xenakis, Messiaen etc. will no doubt survive, enter textbooks, and their most memorable compositions will be listened to.

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  22. #135
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon View Post
    It absolutely does apply.

    Atonal composers have just as much training, knowledge of musical theory, imagination, passion for composing as Beethoven.

    An argument can be made that they may even have more of these. After all, they have all the theory of the past to glean from, as well as everything learned since.

    As far as your comment about Ferneyhough's "masterpiece" goes. I am not a fan of Ferneyhough, so I won't comment. But why try to deride it, by appealing to the worst common denominator, as creating a disco version of it? The fact that a disco version of music that is so metrically and rhythmically complex will not be made, is a big plus.
    This is the problem with these guys. Lotsa training. Not too many fans.

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