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Thread: Sturm und Drang

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    Elements Bezuidenhout considers as 'Sturm und Drang' in Mozart's keyboard music, I guess. But I think works like K396, K397 for example, have more to do with empfindsamer Stil.
    I think you raise an interesting point there about the Empfindsamer Stil. Could it not just be that what some critics and commentators are calling Sturm und Drang is actually just a development of Empfindsamer Stil before the full flowering of Romanticism? In the podcast I listened to earlier they pretty much confined Sturm und Drang to less than a decade in the the 1770's but the Empfindsamer Stil had been used in music since the 1740's.

  2. #32
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SONNET CLV View Post
    I would suggest that Beethoven is all "Sturm und Drang". When he's not sturming, he's dranging! The movement arises just about the time Ludwig is born, and so the boy grows up in a German arts world colored by the Sturm und Drang attitude.
    I see Sturm und Drang more as a temporary trend, a dramatic, tempestuous style that flourished in 1760~1780.
    Whereas "Empfindsamer Stil", "Galante Style" were styles that remained relevant for much longer periods. I think Empfindsamer Stil is more like a sensitive style, rather than a dramatic one, like the kind expressed in CPE Bach Fantasie in F sharp minor WQ67.
    There's also "Thematische Arbeit", which pervaded late Haydn and late Mozart and it's why we don't consider their mature string quartets like Russian Quartets and Haydn Quartets as "Galante style". https://www.gresham.ac.uk/lecture/tr...65-dissonance/
    I see Mozart Fantasie in C minor K475 as being closer to "Stile Pathetique" than "Empfindsamer Stil". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AccW0-FJuVo
    Likewise, I don't think it's appropriate to call every work "Sturm und Drang" just because it's dark and turbulent. Nobody would consider the Mozart Requiem, for example "Sturm und Drang". taking the literal meanings too seriously and overriding the accepted use of the terms would stir up controversies.
    There's indeed stormy, dramatic turbulence in Beethoven, but it doesn't sound exactly like late 18th century turbulence. Likewise, we don't call anything that's Italian melody with bass accompaniment, "Style Galante".
    'bel canto' translates as 'beautiful singing', but the term is mostly used to describe early 19th century opera. But can we argue "Beautiful singing existed ever since opera existed" and call every opera 'bel canto'? That would be misuse of the term.
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Sep-06-2019 at 15:05.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacck View Post
    Sturm = tempest. In this case, an emotional tempest is meant, as a reaction to the rationality of the englightenment
    Drang = urge, compulsion. Again, it relates to strong emotions and impulses that "urge" us.
    Thanks. What's your source for this?
    Last edited by Mandryka; Sep-06-2019 at 15:20.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    Thanks. What's your source for this.
    High school literature, when we learned about the Sturm und Drang movement. (a prototypical work is Goethes Die Leiden des jungen Werthers). But maybe it is a word play, because the other interpretation as "attack" is also possible. That is how I understand the essence of the movement, ie it is about emotional turbulence, irrationality, urges etc. Young Werther falls in love, is in emotional turmoil and commits suicide etc.
    Last edited by Jacck; Sep-06-2019 at 15:24.

  5. #35
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    I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if others have addressed this.

    Sturm und drang translates to storm and stress, or a label to identify what were Haydn's first attempts at minor key drama in symphonies with louder passages contrasting against the norm and greater expressions of sorrow or grief or elation than was generally associated with him.

    In other words it was the earliest earmarks of what became known as the romantic style in music with great changes in tempo, dynamics and volume than had been known before.

    It was transferrable to other art forms such as Mary Shelley's Frankenstein written in the early 19th century that capitalized on the then-popular idea of recreation from the dead. And of course the revolutionary art of Delacroix and others representing the France of the revolution.
    Last edited by larold; Sep-06-2019 at 18:56.

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    It's not that long a thread ...

  7. #37
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    On the subject of Empfindsamer Stil; yes, it is translated often as 'sensitive style' but I don't think it means sensitive in the sense of physically so but rather sensitive to emotional moods and mood changes. That can mean quiet reflective moments quickly transposed with moments of turmoil and torment. That's how I understand it.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by classical yorkist View Post
    On the subject of Empfindsamer Stil; yes, it is translated often as 'sensitive style' but I don't think it means sensitive in the sense of physically so but rather sensitive to emotional moods and mood changes. That can mean quiet reflective moments quickly transposed with moments of turmoil and torment. That's how I understand it.
    Here's a performance of a piece by JS Bach, the third movement of the trio sonata in opfer, which seems to me to bring out the sensitive style in the music, is if Bach had learned a thing or two from his son. From The Bach Players, a London ensemble.

    Last edited by Mandryka; Sep-06-2019 at 21:28.

  9. #39
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    I would say Mozart Maurerische Trauermusik (1785) is an orchestral work that definitely doesn't have its origins in "Sturm und Drang". It uses Gregorian chant psalm-tone, tonus peregrinus like the Introitus of his own Requiem and Suscepit Israel of Bach Magnificat BWV243. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSSUZrYEgDM The influences and inspirations for this work date far back, before the time of 'Sturm und Drang'. It just quite doesn't sound like the mainstream 'Sturm und Drang' stuff of 1760s~70s. There's even a choral version (which I can't find at the moment) where the woodwind parts are sung by voices. The voices make it somewhat resemble Gregorian chant.

    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Sep-16-2019 at 23:31.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Love this period/style of music. Haydn's Lamentatione (still my favourite symphony by Haydn) and Mozart's 25th Symphony.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne4a0yXSShE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRTMvbZoKwU
    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Sep-16-2019 at 23:57.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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  12. #41
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    Im still very much undecided about whether Sturm und Drang can be considered to have a musical strand, my feeling is to say that no it doesn't. However, I've heard some simply marvellous music on this short journey and I hope I hear much more. I think I shall have to buy the Haydn Sturm und Drang box in the interests of further research. At least that's what I'll tell my wife!

  13. #42
    Senior Member Allerius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    I know there's a debate in some quarters on the proper definition of Sturm und Drang (although it seems to me scholars generally agree that it's the kind of composition style like K159, K173, K183 written around 1760s~70s that classifies as Sturm und Drang)
    But then how much of music before and after that period is NOT Sturm und Drang?
    Is Beethoven's 5th Sturm und Drang?

    And also, as I discussed there's a lot of influence of Handel, Michael Haydn, Johann Ernst Eberlin in Mozart's liturgical works and if we were to include all these in the category of Sturm und Drang and then we also have to accept that Sturm und Drang is NOT entirely Gluckian creation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rh25hN89B8

    Was Handel inspired by Gluck when writing Messiah?

    2:25
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=538YjmPOTw8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20y7F2i8nAI

    Since 'Sturm und Drang' is not the main topic of this thread, I recommend a better place to discuss this: Sturm und Drang
    I understand that emotional, expressive music already exists at least since the times of Hildegard. Yet, it seems to me that music started to become really intense and fiery with Vivaldi. Think in some arias from Orlando Furioso, some minor mode concertos from L'Estro Armonico or sacred music such as his Lauda Jerusalem:



    J.S. Bach knew Vivaldi very well and used him as a model for fiery music by his own such as his BWV 1052 (based on Vivaldi's RV 208), and I think that it's very likely that Händel may have had this influence from his period in Italy. These great composers were very influential, but none of them adopted this kind of music within a Classical period style. Gluck did. And it seems that he was the first doing so:

    "Christoph Willibald Gluck's 1761 ballet, Don Juan, heralded the emergence of Sturm und Drang in music; the program notes explicitly indicated that the D minor finale was to evoke fear in the listener. Jean Jacques Rousseau's 1762 play, Pygmalion (first performed in 1770) is a similarly important bridge in its use of underlying instrumental music to convey the mood of the spoken drama. The first example of melodrama, Pygmalion influenced Goethe and other important German literary figures." - "Sturm und Drang", Wikipedia.

    So, I understand that composers such as Vivaldi, J.S.Bach and Händel may be seem as precursors to "Sturm und Drang" in music, while Gluck is it's creator, this if we agree to define the movement as "tempestuous and passionate music of the Classical era", a quite broad definition.

    About Beethoven and "Sturm und Drang", see what that thesis I mentioned earlier says (in slides 69 and 70):

    "Beethoven (1770-1827) was a child during the actual Sturm und Drang era. Authorities agree, however, that he was strongly influenced by the Sturm und Drang. Indeed, Lang states, in reference to the Sturm und Drang, 'more than anyone else, Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) lived in this movement and was carried by it.' Unfortunately, Lang cites no particular works. Interestingly, Lang states that the romantic elements in Beethoven's early compositions do not contradict his pure classicism and that all the great classicists had a 'romantic crisis' as a result of the Sturm und Drang.

    Further evidence of Beethoven's tie to the Sturm und Drang is given by Brook. He points out that of all of Haydn's music, Beethoven seems to have been especially attracted to his Sturm und Drang works. An example of this attraction is seen in the close relationship between Haydn's Symphony No. 44, one of his greatest Sturm und Drang works, and Beethoven's Piano Sonata, Op.27, No. 2, the "Moonlight Sonata." Brook states that these two works show a "striking identity of tempo, rhythm, melodic line, and harmony."

    Ratner and Rudolf agree that the Sturm und Drang style was an element in Beethoven's music. Ratner states that not only Beethoven but also Cherubini and many of their contemporaries used the Sturm und Drang style 'as one of the principal focal points of expression.' Rudolf states that it was in Beethoven's music that the Sturm und Drang became 'an integral part of instrumental music.' He cites Beethoven's Piano Sonata in E Flat Major (W.o.0.47) as an example of his use of the Sturm und Drang style."


    One could argue that C.P.E. Bach's "Empfindsamer Stil" from the 1740's matches the idea I have for "Sturm und Drang", but I understand the first concept more as sensitive rather than dramatic, as you put it in post #32, this second word being more attached to the latter style. So I think in Carl Phillip Emanuel as one more precursor to Gluck in this context.
    Last edited by Allerius; Sep-17-2019 at 19:50.
    “To do good whenever one can, to love liberty above all else, never to deny the truth, even though it be before the throne.” - Ludwig van Beethoven.

  14. #43
    Senior Member Allerius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    I don't see how Sturm and Drang can be discussed in the arts without looking at Goethe's role in it. It influnced all the arts in Germany:

    "Sturm und Drang was intimately associated with the young Goethe. While a student at Strasbourg, he made the acquaintance of Johann Gottfried von Herder, a former pupil of Hamann, who interested him in Gothic architecture, German folk songs, and Shakespeare. Inspired by Herder’s ideas, Goethe embarked upon a period of extraordinary creativity. In 1773 he published a play based upon the 16th-century German knight, Götz von Berlichingen, and collaborated with Herder and others on the pamphlet “Von deutscher Art und Kunst,” which was a kind of manifesto for the Sturm und Drang. His novel Die Leiden des jungen Werthers (1774; The Sorrows of Young Werther), which epitomized the spirit of the movement, made him world famous and inspired a host of imitators. The German literary movement of the late 18th century that exalted nature, feeling, and human individualism and sought to overthrow the Enlightenment cult of Rationalism."
    Yet it's interesting to have in mind that both Gluck and Haydn were composing in a style that we now call "Sturm und Drang" before the movement ever happened in literature, what relativizes Goethe's primary role in it, at least in a first moment.
    Last edited by Allerius; Sep-17-2019 at 18:47.
    “To do good whenever one can, to love liberty above all else, never to deny the truth, even though it be before the throne.” - Ludwig van Beethoven.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    Yet it's interesting to have in mind that both Gluck and Haydn were composing in a style that we now call "Sturm und Drang" before the movement ever happened in literature, what relativizes Goethe's primary role in it, at least in a first moment.
    A good point and very valid. The artists involved in the so called Sturm und Drang movement never referred to it as such. The epithet was conferred much later. If one were to say to Goethe 'I really love your Sturm in Drang period' he would no doubt respond quizzically. It's all quite nebulous. Rather all these threads in the arts are part of the rejection of the Enlightenment and the age of reason. A desire for expression rather than dispassion.

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