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Thread: Rootless Triads in Beethoven Sonata, What?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Are y'all having fun out there in CP diatonic function land?
    Hey, why not? Beethoven seemed to be having fun with all that pedantic circle of fifths crap.

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    Appreciate your open-mindedness, but have to disagree with this one MR. I see where you're coming from, but there are established relationships that don't really work any other way. I made this video just for you, for illustration. Going from an Am key signature through to the Ab major. I even threw a chromatic interpretation (note the A would have to be flattened to work as a chromatic progression). None sound right except for the Ab, the chromatic one still sounds to imply something diatonic, and doesn't work. I only focused on the more plausible ones, the other ones with sharps would just sound worse.
    I listened to it, but couldn't tell what your point is.

    Here's an example that shows how every chromatic note can be a root.

    We start with a simple C major triad: CEG.
    1. Then we put a C in the bass, and it's a C major.
    2. C# in the bass, and it's a C#min -maj7b5
    3. D in the bass and it's Dsus9
    4. Eb in the bass and it's Eb13b9
    5. E in the bass: Eaug5maj7#9
    6. F in bass: Fmaj7/9
    7. F# bass: F#7b5b9
    8. G bass: Gsus13
    9. Ab bass: Abmaj7b13
    10. A bass: Amin7
    11. Bb bass: Bb13b5b9
    12. B bass: Bsusb9b13

    I didn't double-check this example, but I'm sure if there is an error, that the kind, compassionate denizens of CP theory-land will point this out to me politely, without misrepresenting me or falsifying quotations.
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    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

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  3. #63
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I listened to it, but couldn't tell what your point is.

    Here's an example that shows how every chromatic note can be a root.

    We start with a simple C major triad: CEG.
    1. Then we put a C in the bass, and it's a C major.
    2. C# in the bass, and it's a C#min -maj7b5
    3. D in the bass and it's Dsus9
    4. Eb in the bass and it's Eb13b9
    5. E in the bass: Eaug5maj7#9
    6. F in bass: Fmaj7/9
    7. F# bass: F#7b5b9
    8. G bass: Gsus13
    9. Ab bass: Abmaj7b13
    10. A bass: Amin7
    11. Bb bass: Bb13b5b9
    12. B bass: Bsusb9b13

    I didn't double-check this example, but I'm sure if there is an error, that the kind, compassionate denizens of CP theory-land will point this out to me politely, without misrepresenting me or falsifying quotations.
    When you said you wanted to look at the 2 1/2 bar passage chromatically, I took it as meaning as a chromatic progression with the key signature left out and not in terms of any key, rather than diatonically. That was what I based the last scenario on and my comment on the chromatic possibilities (which aren't great).

    But what you're doing now is not even looking at the passage at all, and making an isolated case of substituting the bass note C in the triad CEG with every note of the scale, which is completely removed from the passage in question. Furthermore you substituting the bass note C with a another note doesn't automatically make that bass note of the chord a root without some context, especially not with the other notes in that passage. Thirdly the idea of a root is going back to diatonic analysis, which I thought you were trying to get away from (those damn CP'ers!). Is that what you meant by looking at the passage chromatically?
    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Oct-08-2019 at 04:52.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    When you said you wanted to look at the 2 1/2 bar passage chromatically, I took it as meaning as a chromatic progression with the key signature left out and not in terms of any key, rather than diatonically. That was what I based the last scenario on and my comment on the chromatic possibilities (which aren't great).

    But what you're doing now is not even looking at the passage at all, and making an isolated case of substituting the bass note C in the triad CEG with every note of the scale, which is completely removed from the passage in question.
    It's done that way to illustrate the underlying principle, which you don't seem to be able to accept for some academic reason.

    Furthermore you substituting the bass note C with a another note doesn't automatically make that bass note of the chord a root without some context, especially not with the other notes in that passage.
    ...and I suppose you mean "diatonic context."

    I'm not doing it in context; that's too restrictive. The example illustrates that notes can be considered in 12 ways, using isolated chords. I'm not necessarily talking about "keys" per se. Remember, my exact words were "
    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Anything can be analyzed any way, if there is no key specified. Each note has 12 possibilities. Doesn't it?
    Thirdly the idea of a root is going back to diatonic analysis, which I thought you were trying to get away from (those damn CP'ers!). Is that what you meant by looking at the passage chromatically?
    What's the problem, Phil? The example is still there. Did you even look at it?
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Oct-08-2019 at 07:56.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  5. #65
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    It's done that way to illustrate the underlying principle, which you don't seem to be able to accept for some academic reason.



    ...and I suppose you mean "diatonic context."

    I'm not doing it in context; that's too restrictive. The example illustrates that notes can be considered in 12 ways, using isolated chords. I'm not necessarily talking about "keys" per se. Remember, my exact words were "



    What's the problem, Phil? The example is still there. Did you even look at it?
    No problem with your example in isolation, but you're not really analyzing the passage in any way, which I thought was the whole idea. Show how your idea or concept is able to analyze the passage in question in 12 ways "chromatically" as you claimed.
    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Oct-08-2019 at 13:07.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    No problem with your example in isolation, but you're not really analyzing the passage in any way, which I thought was the whole idea. Show how your idea or concept is able to analyze the passage in question in 12 ways "chromatically" as you claimed.
    It can't be done in a CP context, in diatonic music, using only 'recognized' functions, etc.

    In case you hadn't noticed by the history & progression of the discussion, I long ago withdrew from attempting an analysis of the passage, mainly because of the incomplete examples. The 'chromatic card' I threw on the table was just a way of saying that I have bigger fish to fry.

    Or did nobody get that?
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  7. #67
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    It can't be done in a CP context, in diatonic music, using only 'recognized' functions, etc.

    In case you hadn't noticed by the history & progression of the discussion, I long ago withdrew from attempting an analysis of the passage, mainly because of the incomplete examples. The 'chromatic card' I threw on the table was just a way of saying that I have bigger fish to fry.

    Or did nobody get that?
    I didn't get it, at least. I only got the impression the chromatic idea sounds better by way of talking than in practice for this application.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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