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Thread: UFOs: Threat or Menace?

  1. #76
    Senior Member Jacck's Avatar
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    5 REAL Possibilities for Interstellar Travel

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    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacck View Post
    5 REAL Possibilities for Interstellar Travel
    [video=youtube;EzZGPCyrpSU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v
    The large stars of Alpha Centauri orbit each other every 80 years, which is not good for human habitation of any planets that may have survived.

    Proxima is a trillion miles away from them, about 0.22 lys. It doesn't support photosynthesis though.
    Last edited by Luchesi; Sep-24-2019 at 17:18.
    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Senior Member joen_cph's Avatar
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    "The Milky Way could be teeming with interstellar alien civilizations, according to a new study. We just don't know about it because they haven't paid us a visit in 10 million years."
    https://www.sciencealert.com/aliens-...new-study-says

    "One recent study estimated that up to 10 billion of planets in the Milky Way could be Earth-like."
    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/1...-galaxy-2019-8
    Last edited by joen_cph; Sep-27-2019 at 07:06.

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    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Given the enormous distances to be traveled between stellar systems, even at near-light velocities, one speculates on the perception of elapsed time by the beings involved in multi-century or multi-millennium journeys. Unless beings are placed into deep hibernation, those creatures with extremely slow metabolisms and concomitant relaxed conceptions of the passage of time would be favored to survive such voyages mentally intact. But that raises questions about their ability to deal with abrupt real-time problems encountered after arriving at a new habitable planet and dealing with comparatively quick-moving hostile native species.

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    Senior Member joen_cph's Avatar
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    I think it's quite likely that any inhabitants of such advanced civilizations have transgressed limitations of their (earlier) biology.
    Last edited by joen_cph; Sep-27-2019 at 13:09.

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    Senior Member Bwv 1080's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    Given the enormous distances to be traveled between stellar systems, even at near-light velocities, one speculates on the perception of elapsed time by the beings involved in multi-century or multi-millennium journeys. Unless beings are placed into deep hibernation, those creatures with extremely slow metabolisms and concomitant relaxed conceptions of the passage of time would be favored to survive such voyages mentally intact. But that raises questions about their ability to deal with abrupt real-time problems encountered after arriving at a new habitable planet and dealing with comparatively quick-moving hostile native species.
    At relativistic speeds, time dilation makes the trips quite manageable. At constant 1g acceleration on could even get to the Andromeda galaxy within a human lifetime

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    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joen_cph View Post
    I think it's quite likely that any inhabitants of such advanced civilizations have transgressed limitations of their (earlier) biology.
    An elite technocracy could focus on ways to extend life. They learn to quarantine or shield themselves from age factors as space travel technology also advances. Anti-aging and space exploration could conceivably have a compound effect that results in the next human growth boom.

    An ET race could have done this long ago. And in places like SV, the techno-elites are already semi-secretly pursuing this very goal.

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  9. #83
    Senior Member joen_cph's Avatar
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    Indeed, not to speak of a life form living in a shape of technology and replacable parts.
    Last edited by joen_cph; Sep-27-2019 at 16:55.

  10. #84
    Senior Member Jacck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    An elite technocracy could focus on ways to extend life. They learn to quarantine or shield themselves from age factors as space travel technology also advances. Anti-aging and space exploration could conceivably have a compound effect that results in the next human growth boom.
    yes, that would be great if the psychopaths ruling the planet could extend their life indefinitely, and the world would be governed by immortal Putins, while the rest of humanity would be at their mercy. So far, death has been the only justice in life. And no power today is really interested in space exploration, they are much more interested in creating nanoweapons and similar stuff

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    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    If we're lucky there's no intelligences nearby, because of the Rare Earth filters. Why would we want to risk this planet and our lives to talk to beings who might be monsters toward us? It's such a childish impulse. It's what parents tell their small children, not to engage with strangers.
    Run the Rare Earth numbers that say we're one of only ten in this supercluster of thousands of galaxies. Pretty special. But this universe is much rarer among universes, because the per unit strength of Dark Energy and the strength of the Higgs field are so special here. Amazing we are!
    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

  12. #86
    Senior Member Jacck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    If we're lucky there's no intelligences nearby, because of the Rare Earth filters. Why would we want to risk this planet and our lives to talk to beings who might be monsters toward us? It's such a childish impulse. It's what parents tell their small children, not to engage with strangers.
    Run the Rare Earth numbers that say we're one of only ten in this supercluster of thousands of galaxies. Pretty special. But this universe is much rarer among universes, because the per unit strength of Dark Energy and the strength of the Higgs field are so special here. Amazing we are!
    I never really liked the antropic principle. It is a case of circular reasoning and offers a backdoor for creationists how to sneak their religion into science, ie claiming that a creator was needed to fine-tune the conditions of the Big Bang and set the values of fundamental nature constants within the universe. I read a book about the constants years ago
    https://www.amazon.com/Constants-Nat.../dp/1400032253
    and now the string theorists have resurrected the idea
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf7BXwVeyWw
    Last edited by Jacck; Sep-29-2019 at 17:16.

  13. #87
    Senior Member Dim7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    If we're lucky there's no intelligences nearby, because of the Rare Earth filters. Why would we want to risk this planet and our lives to talk to beings who might be monsters toward us? It's such a childish impulse. It's what parents tell their small children, not to engage with strangers.
    Run the Rare Earth numbers that say we're one of only ten in this supercluster of thousands of galaxies. Pretty special. But this universe is much rarer among universes, because the per unit strength of Dark Energy and the strength of the Higgs field are so special here. Amazing we are!
    We shouldn't even wish to find non-intelligent life because the probability for some of the scarier explanations for the Fermi Paradox (technology inevitably gets too destructive as it advances beyond a certain point, hence we don't find signs of technological civilizations) being true go up in that case, since the simple explanation that life itself is rare would be pretty much ruled out.

    That doesn't prevent me from irrationally wishing to see evidence of extraterrestrial life though...
    Last edited by Dim7; Sep-29-2019 at 18:00.
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  14. #88
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacck View Post
    I never really liked the antropic principle. It is a case of circular reasoning and offers a backdoor for creationists how to sneak their religion into science, ie claiming that a creator was needed to fine-tune the conditions of the Big Bang and set the values of fundamental nature constants within the universe. I read a book about the constants years ago
    https://www.amazon.com/Constants-Nat.../dp/1400032253
    and now the string theorists have resurrected the idea
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf7BXwVeyWw
    Yes, he's getting better at presenting these 'larger' views.

    10^500 different ways universes can develop down through time from its so-called inflaton field. Gravity and negative gravity (within his quantum field concept) equal ONE so that it's the ultimate free lunch for universes. The negative gravity does dissipate, but by that time spacetime has expanded enough so that Dark Energy begins to become a significant factor (which depends upon its per-unit strength in each new universe). This changeover can be seen in the Type Ia supernova data. I think I remember, as seen in the data, that it took 5.5 billion years for Dark Energy to become strong enough to oppose a collapse due to gravity and begin the current acceleration. Gravity was slowing the expansion for a short time. Without this Dark Energy this universe would recollapse within 20 billion years (at the low end). There's papers on this. I don't know the latest.

    Isn’t it geocentric thinking to not expect there to be many many other universes?

    Anthropic ideas are everywhere we look. By some estimates we need 3 to 4 mg of fluoride every day. Where does fluorine come from?

    from wiki
    Among the lighter elements, fluorine's abundance value of 400 ppb (parts per billion) – 24th among elements in the universe – is exceptionally low: other elements from carbon to magnesium are twenty or more times as common.[55] This is because stellar nucleosynthesis processes bypass fluorine, and any fluorine atoms otherwise created have high nuclear cross sections, allowing further fusion with hydrogen or helium to generate oxygen or neon respectively.[55][56]
    Beyond this transient existence, three explanations have been proposed for the presence of fluorine:[55][57]
    • during type II supernovae, bombardment of neon atoms by neutrinos could transmute them to fluorine;
    • the solar wind of Wolf–Rayet stars could blow fluorine away from any hydrogen or helium atoms; or
    • fluorine is borne out on convection currents arising from fusion in asymptotic giant branch stars.
    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

  15. #89
    Senior Member Jacck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    Yes, he's getting better at presenting these 'larger' views.
    Isn’t it geocentric thinking to not expect there to be many many other universes?

    Anthropic ideas are everywhere we look. By some estimates we need 3 to 4 mg of fluoride every day. Where does fluorine come from?

    from wiki
    Among the lighter elements, fluorine's abundance value of 400 ppb (parts per billion) – 24th among elements in the universe – is exceptionally low: other elements from carbon to magnesium are twenty or more times as common.[55] This is because stellar nucleosynthesis processes bypass fluorine, and any fluorine atoms otherwise created have high nuclear cross sections, allowing further fusion with hydrogen or helium to generate oxygen or neon respectively.[55][56]
    Beyond this transient existence, three explanations have been proposed for the presence of fluorine:[55][57]
    • during type II supernovae, bombardment of neon atoms by neutrinos could transmute them to fluorine;
    • the solar wind of Wolf–Rayet stars could blow fluorine away from any hydrogen or helium atoms; or
    • fluorine is borne out on convection currents arising from fusion in asymptotic giant branch stars.
    I am loathe to wild speculations, hence I dismiss the multiverse as basically unscientific. It is grounded in string theory, which is an incomplete theory, that has never been confirmed by a single experiment. It might be correct, it might be completely wrong, I do not know and nobody does. The speculate about multiverses is like speculating about pink elephants in the Andromeda galaxy.

    And is fluorine really required for life? We need fluorine, because we evolved in an environment rich in fluorine. We have no idea about other forms of life. There is life several kilometres into the Earth crust, bacteria that evolved to thrive on energy sources other than sunlight using different kinds of metabolism
    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...ology-science/
    we might even find life on Mars, because it has large underground water reservoirs.
    Last edited by Jacck; Sep-29-2019 at 18:24.

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  17. #90
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    "I am loathe to wild speculations, hence I dismiss the multiverse as basically unscientific."

    I look at it differently. I think it's quite a religious mindset to merely project that we're the only universe. Where does that come from?

    Because if we do find the mechanism (beyond mere probability) by which a sequence of space-time fluctuations (maybe once in a trillion years) reach the top of the energy sombrero continually resulting in other big bangs, then the scientific path will be to incorporate the multiverse view, just like we did with the view that the speed of EM propagation is limited at the SOL and it's everywhere constant throughout the universe.. and all the other assumptions we make based upon bits of evidence.
    Last edited by Luchesi; Sep-29-2019 at 19:28.
    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

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