Page 14 of 15 FirstFirst ... 4101112131415 LastLast
Results 196 to 210 of 217

Thread: The Met's Music Director, Vocal "Expert"

  1. #196
    Senior Member Granate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    2,539
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    I thought TIO want to make the case for bel canto as the only legitimate operatic singing style?
    They put a cut quote by Callas showing the kind of notes a singer should have in one of her masterclasses. She stated it was the only way to sing, and TIO seems to be owning up to since everything I see in their poorly narrated videos are constant magister dixit arguments (not to call defeasable reasoning) (I had to look the Latin up since I only know it in Spanish).

    But what makes me argue their videos are poorly narrated? This thread and some of the fellow members, even if I don't agree with their points, have told and reasoned their points in a more natural manner and with any of the tricks the channel uses, (like muting the pitch of streaming performances against an old live concert in old and compressed audio, placing text and interviews with no sense of eyesight, typography, narrativeness...) I'd rather make a case of how poorly TIO presents what they can state that is evident but fail to adress and put in context the limitations of their own technology (I'm not meaning 20s recordings like DavidA, I'm meaning 2010s opera broadcasts! I'm meaning video thumbnails! I'm meaning video editing!).

  2. Likes DavidA liked this post
  3. #197
    Senior Member Granate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    2,539
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I saw the video we are talking about a month ago. Back then I was quickly infuriated by the tone and awful editing the channel had. Not long ago I had imprinted on the YNS recording of Das Lied von der Erde I purchased. It had not appealed to me compared to old recordings of the work, but listening closely I began to fall in love with the playing and started to forgive and even appreciate the singing (which isn't entirely chesty but to my ears it adjusts really well to the LPO playing). But that is another case.

    I still side with DavidA against this kind of reasoning and view of opera, but reading the thread better I can take many of the points made. The point of chest singing being lost over the "egos" and "interpretations" of conductors is something I can understand. It is certainly jarring in the case of stage directors who are more likely to be the protagonist of the opera since newspapers have it easier to pull videos and pictures of alternate universes and unwritten endings instead of asking the reader to imagine a night of arresting singing technique. But if the point is made this way about a way of singing that should come back for the sake of our ears and patience, so anyone could make a video about old Opera conductors knowing nothing about the job while playing videos and interviews of conductors like Thielemmann, Bernstein, Pappano, Currentzis and even YNS showing a detail in the score rehearsal more likely of the best Karajan days.

    I recently listened to a Riccardo Muti performance of Il Trovatore in La Scala in 2000. Singing could be argued to be extremely insufficient, and I don't remember the best conducting bits, but it was a wholy operatic experience that very few conductors if any achieved to make live and on record, same about Pappano but being way more bombastic.






    Do you know why the argument that I'm making here is also defeasable? Why didn't I put the extracts of the 61 Perlea recording or the Cellini studio recording that show the same or even more string bite than the modern recordings? Same with TIOs arguments. Just to prove a valid and understandable argument in a way a simpleton can see the difference, they pick the most intense and legendary extracts of chest singing (preserved by collectors before the internet precisely because they were excellent examples, unlike many other average old recital recordings that have gone into oblivion) and then go pick an example of any YouTube streaming masterclass by a conductor or opera performance where the video's audio is severely compressed by modern technology to undermine even more the kind of singing they thoroughfully dislike.

    The technology of Youtube limits their reasoning way more than this long and rich thread. Titles, thumbnails, video cuts, typography. That's what they should work out if they don't want someone like me run away by such formally poor arguing.



    Oh, and before I forget, let me place another point of view to this video: You're welcome for the views, TIO. But I'm not subscribing.



    Quote Originally Posted by James Tolksdorf
    My dear annonymous opera channel. I'm an opera singer myself and have sung Wagner alot like Flying Dutchman (main role), Kurvenal( Tristan), Klingsor (Parsival). I love that you like to get back to the real singing but I want to tell you that you PLEASE don't forget that times in the opera business have changed alot. Showing what old singers did as an example is wonderful but young people get depressed by being criticized. I'm 49 years old and had the pleasure to study in Frankurt (Germany) and also at Juilliard School NYC with the teacher of Simon Estes (the first black Dutchman in Bayreuth, Germany). Singing Wagner is very demanding, physically and mentally. But in these days we often have no rest to build up power to perform brilliantly. For example. In my theater we had in my production two Sentas and I was the only Holländer. So, the orchestra/stage rehearsal were "four" times in two days. The opera of the flying dutchman fits into one 3 hour rehearsal which means I had to sing loud out the Flying Dutchman 4 times in two days; in the morning at 10am and evening at 6pm. And the performances were not different. Two weekends where I sang 3 times in 4 days the Dutchman. This is something that did't happen in the glorious days of the big singing in the 50's or 60's were singer were appreciated. I can go on now but I don't want to. I know the market here in Germany. Everybody comes in since the wall in 1989 is open from the east and even from the US and Korea. The Market of opera is flooded with people who sing for almost nothig because they don't make money in their countrys, the studies are reduced from 8 to 4 years ( which makes no sence for growth), the media is only looking for sexappeal and so on, not for real good voices. So there are alot of things that mix up the market and the prices. And although Germany has almost the equivalent of music theaters to the rest of the world (over 150) Good or bad singer are treated like milk and butter. Regie theater is the thing since the 60's were the the illuminator, the outfitter, the regisseur and conducter has more importance that the singer. In these days caressing egos of the hirachie is more important than the art of singing itself. UNFORTUNATELY
    Dear members of "This is opera" If you really want to do something: "do it" not just siting there and compare the old school of singing with the new on. It's not helping. It's only reminding. Go and teach live as I do!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Maleitzke
    There is one tragic flaw with the production and therefore the premise of this video. The audio quality of the more recent performance is muted in some way.
    Last edited by Granate; Oct-09-2019 at 17:08.

  4. #198
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    14,349
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    ^^^Could you put more concisely your point(s) of disagreement with the ideas expressed by This Is Opera? Do you think incorrect their views on vocal technique and their suggestion that contemporary conductors know less about singing than their predecessors? Or is your argument primarily with the sloppy presentation of the video?
    Last edited by Woodduck; Oct-09-2019 at 17:05.

  5. Likes vivalagentenuova, silentio liked this post
  6. #199
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    6,741
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    I don't know. Have they said that? "Bel canto" is certainly a term that needs defining.
    Yes.

    We are a group of musicians who are very passionate about restoring opera to its past glory. Through our experiences we learned a very important lesson: there is only one correct way to sing, and that is the old Italian school of singing, the bel canto technique. Absolutely nothing else can work efficiently for the human anatomy and for this art form that calls for power, stamina and beauty.
    https://thisismisteropera.wixsite.co...opera/about-us
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

  7. Likes vivalagentenuova, Woodduck liked this post
  8. #200
    Senior Member Granate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    2,539
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    ^^^Could you put more concisely your point(s) of disagreement with the ideas expressed by This Is Opera? Do you think incorrect their views on vocal technique and their suggestion that contemporary conductors know less about singing than their predecessors? Or is your argument primarily with the sloppy presentation of the video?
    Second. The presentation oversimplifies their points and in some cases they cheat. But also, their way of arguing in the video they undermine their nostalgia over one technique without addressing how mediatised and manipulated all our operatic material is, and that is sound quality, compression, selection, time span, prestige, cultural status back and then...

    About suggesting the young conductors know less about singing, this is relative. Sure, I understand conductors are making more decisions by themselves to enhance music making, sometimes along stage directors, but they try to throw these examples to imply that it is the main reason new singing school is ruining opera (notice the judgement they make). There is much less chest singing nowadays, yes, but why the use of media interviews of conductors talking about singing (not their job) and ommiting all the times they talk about the composers and works and how they see them to propose a coherent music making (their job actually). Provided that we put conductors from the past prone to media starting by Karajan, mixed with other known names like Georges Pretre, Gianandrea Gavazzeni, James Levine, Wolfgang Sawallisch, Zubin Mehta, and place them in a YouTube world where opera houses plead for videos of them to promote their events, how would they end up not talking at some point about singing?

    Aren't we now for better or worse in a context where opera goers supposedly don't go to the opera house to "sit back and enjoy"? I don't think we can think about the voices on record now when we pull them away of context, hunger of labels for DVD making and broadcasting, and the view of stage directors of opera as cinema, where movie goers come to be surprised by art rather than entertained by craft, and therefore anything is possible. This is the mindset that could also explain why are we here.

  9. #201
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    14,349
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    I agree completely with their statement about singing in our Western musical tradition: "there is only one correct way to sing, and that is the old Italian school of singing, the bel canto technique. Absolutely nothing else can work efficiently for the human anatomy and for this art form that calls for power, stamina and beauty."

  10. Likes silentio, IgorS liked this post
  11. #202
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    14,349
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Granate View Post
    Second. The presentation oversimplifies their points and in some cases they cheat. But also, their way of arguing in the video they undermine their nostalgia over one technique without addressing how mediatised and manipulated all our operatic material is, and that is sound quality, compression, selection, time span, prestige, cultural status back and then...

    Aren't we now for better or worse in a context where opera goers supposedly don't go to the opera house to "sit back and enjoy"? I don't think we can think about the voices on record now when we pull them away of context, hunger of labels for DVD making and broadcasting, and the view of stage directors of opera as cinema, where movie goers come to be surprised by art rather than entertained by craft, and therefore anything is possible. This is the mindset that could also explain why are we here.
    We can agree that TIO is amateurish in its presentation and not necessarily fair to certain performers. If this prevents people from considering the basic message, which has mainly to do with vocal technique and changing expectations of vocal performance, TIO must certainly take some of the blame. But what matters here, in the end? Personally, I listen through these drawbacks the way I listen through poor sound on old recordings in order to get to the meat of the matter. How do people sing? How well do they sing? How should we think about singing and about opera?

    If I understand you, you're suggesting that the diverse media and venues through which we now experience opera may influence what people now expect of operatic singing. That's plausible, and perhaps likely; seeing singers close up on a screen, and even hearing them close up on a microphone, may make the cultivation of the fullest capabilities of the voice seem unnecessary, at least with regard to sheer audibilty. With some generous help from the sound engineers, a young, good-looking, sweet-voiced lyric tenor might play Tristan onscreen, and the operatically untutored viewer, unacquainted with the likes of Vickers and Melchior, might be none the wiser. After all, the guy looks pretty, acts well and sounds pleasant, doesn't he? Perhaps that is the fate to which opera, and the art of singing, is doomed.

    But we have to decide whether that is what we want. As one who is very much tutored in the art of singing, I can say that it is decidedly not what I want. I reject your statement "I don't think we can think about the voices on record now when we pull them away of context." If we still care about the great operas as the composers conceived them (and not merely as playthings for directors who can't create anything of their own), then we most definitely can, and must, think about voices, and what voices can do. Opera remains an art form that depends on music and the proper performance of it, and that means singing, singing of the kind which composers require to bring their music to life. Whatever we opera-goers and movie-goers now expect when we "sit back and enjoy," Mozart and Verdi and Wagner had their own expectations, and they should have the final say in the matter. They gave us powerful and difficult music, and they expected it to be sung by voices capable of doing its technical and expressive demands full justice.

    It's up to us whether we want to try to preserve our cultural heritage, of which opera and the art of singing are important parts.
    Last edited by Woodduck; Oct-09-2019 at 19:31.

  12. Likes Byron, OperaChic, IgorS liked this post
  13. #203
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,357
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I have no problem with the nostalgia for what people think is a lost past. The statement: 'We are a group of musicians who are very passionate about restoring opera to its past glory.' How old are these guys? I am in my 70s and I can only just remember Tebaldi & co when I was a young man and only through their records. So unless these guys are a lot older than me it's a pretty firm bet they cannot have seen many of these great singers they quote live on stage. I don't know if anyone here can reach back that far to have actually seen them on stage? I'd be interested. How far can you go back?
    Last edited by DavidA; Oct-09-2019 at 20:16.

  14. #204
    Senior Member Granate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    2,539
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Then my point about the video and channel is made and I need to discuss about it no more. Your thoughts could lead to one of the threads already created like the future of opera or if Opera is stupid (I don't have the free time to read them or continue following this thread, sorry. Appreciate your reply even if I'd like to develop the argument about pulling modern opera singers' technique and performances, and the performances recorded in a very distant past, in a common and comparable context, which I don't think they share.

    Both you and DavidA (who I spiritually agree with in this topic) are valuable posters in this forum. You know I sometimes side with one and other times with the other

    Two weeks ago I watched on youtube this complete performance of Il Trovatore before checking out 25 recordings of the work, which I listened fully in 8 days. I was only looking for a performance that followed more or less the dressing and plot of the Verdi opera, even if the singing made me space out many times during Act III.



    Indeed, I really enjoyed the old mono recordings from the singers from the past since 1938, and a great quartet with powerful singing (which I think I only found in the Azucena of this production) can make the opera really enjoyable, but it's like throughout 60 years, very few singers have recorded the main roles and many times repeated them:

    Jussi Björling, Mario del Monaco, Franco Corelli, Carlo Bergonzi, later Plácido Domingo and Luciano Pavarotti, less times for José Carreras and Roberto Alagna
    Mirella Parutto (new discovery), Zinka Milanov, Renata Tebaldi (only studio), Leontyne Price (one of her landmarks) Gabriella Tucci, Antonietta Stella, Maria Callas; later Gheorghiu, Ricciarelli, Plowright and Sutherland with arguable success.
    Leonard Warren, Ettore Bastianini (so many recordings!), Rolando Panerai, later Sherrill Milnes, Nesterenko, Piero Cappuccilli and Leo Nucci.
    Fedora Barbieri (so so many!), Giulietta Simionato, Fiorenza Cossotto and Irene Dalis and later Brigitte Fassbaender and Shirley Verrett.

    Especially historical recordings from 50s and early 60s are now available and show a good deal of performances with different combinations but essentially the same singers. Surely there were many more performances with other singers in other opera stages but these ones have been recorded and preserved.

  15. #205
    Senior Member Granate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    2,539
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    I have no problem with the nostalgia for what people think is a lost past. The statement: 'We are a group of musicians who are very passionate about restoring opera to its past glory.' How old are these guys? I am in my 70s and I can only just remember Tebaldi & co when I was a young man and only through their records. So unless these guys are a lot older than me it's a pretty firm bet they cannot have seen many of these great singers they quote live on stage. I don't know if anyone here can reach back that far to have actually seen them on stage? I'd be interested. How far can you go back?
    This argument made me remember one video about the future of the universe that shows that in 100 Billion years every object or star outside our group of galaxies won't be able to be observed any more, so our civilization won't be able to prove they exist even if we once knew they were there and they will be forced to believe they are the center of the universe since everything ouside the galaxy is pitch black and nothingness.



    From 4:06

  16. #206
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    14,349
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    I have no problem with the nostalgia for what people think is a lost past. The statement: 'We are a group of musicians who are very passionate about restoring opera to its past glory.' How old are these guys? I am in my 70s and I can only just remember Tebaldi & co when I was a young man and only through their records. So unless these guys are a lot older than me it's a pretty firm bet they cannot have seen many of these great singers they quote live on stage. I don't know if anyone here can reach back that far to have actually seen them on stage? I'd be interested. How far can you go back?
    There is a good deal of opera on film from the early postwar years, in addition to a vast treasury of recordings of more singers than most of us have even heard of. I myself continue to be surprised by new discoveries of extraordinary singers from the past. The TIO people have obviously devoted vast amounts of time to exploring these materials. I hardly think that your limited personal experience - and your confessed limited interest in the subject - carries much weight in this conversation, or entitles you to describe other people's opinions as "nostalgia."

    I'm not old enough to be "nostalgic" about Flagstad and Melchior as Tristan and Isolde at the Met in the '30s, but I sure as hell know that I cannot today hear those roles sung the way they sang them.
    Last edited by Woodduck; Oct-09-2019 at 21:00.

  17. Likes Tsaraslondon, silentio, IgorS liked this post
  18. #207
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,357
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    There is a good deal of opera on film from the early postwar years, in addition to a vast treasury of recordings of more singers than most of us have even heard of. I myself continue to be surprised by new discoveries of extraordinary singers from the past. The TIO people have obviously devoted vast amounts of time to exploring these materials. I hardly think that your limited personal experience - and your confessed limited interest in the subject - carries much weight in this conversation, or entitles you to describe other people's opinions as "nostalgia."

    I'm not old enough to be "nostalgic" about Flagstad and Melchior as Tristan and Isolde at the Met in the '30s, but I sure as hell know that I cannot today hear those roles sung the way they sang them.
    So you didn't actually hear them in the opera house of course? How often do you visit the opera house today then? Or in the recent past? Or were you a regular visitor in the past?
    Last edited by DavidA; Oct-09-2019 at 21:20.

  19. #208
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,357
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Granate View Post
    This argument made me remember one video about the future of the universe that shows that in 100 Billion years every object or star outside our group of galaxies won't be able to be observed any more, so our civilization won't be able to prove they exist even if we once knew they were there and they will be forced to believe they are the center of the universe since everything ouside the galaxy is pitch black and nothingness.



    From 4:06
    Well if you live that long, let me know how it goes! Mind you, I bet they'll still be people banging on about how good it was in the good old days!
    Last edited by DavidA; Oct-09-2019 at 21:29.

  20. #209
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    14,349
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    So you didn't actually hear them in the opera house of course? How often do you visit the opera house today then? Or in the recent past? Or were you a regular visitor in the past?
    Your point? (Please don't bother responding unless you have something to contribute besides more of the usual ignorant sniping.)

  21. #210
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,357
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Your point? (Please don't bother responding unless you have something to contribute besides more of the usual ignorant sniping.)

    Why all the defensiveness. I am simply wondering in view of you continually setting your views out what practical experience you have of the opera house. How is this ignorant sniping?
    Last edited by DavidA; Oct-10-2019 at 06:19.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •