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Thread: The Met's Music Director, Vocal "Expert"

  1. #121
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivalagentenuova View Post
    You misread my comment. I made a conditional statement about a hypothetical institution, not a declarative statement, and it had nothing to do with your degree. The only institutions I specifically claimed are corrupt are opera houses and voice schools.
    'Never speak disrespectfully of society, Algernon. Only people who can’t get into it do that.'
    (Lady Bracknell in 'Importance of Being Ernest' - Oscar Wilde)

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    'Never speak disrespectfully of society, Algernon. Only people who can’t get into it do that.'
    (Lady Bracknell in 'Importance of Being Ernest' - Oscar Wilde)
    I've forgotten, so remind me how many La Scala opening nights did Oscar Wilde sing in?

    N.

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    For those who are impressed by such things, much of what TIO demonstrate about vocal technique in their videos were in expressed in the writings of the great vocal pedagogue Cornelius Reid who studied at New York College of Music:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_L._Reid

    N.

  4. #124
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Conte View Post
    For those who are impressed by such things, much of what TIO demonstrate about vocal technique in their videos were in expressed in the writings of the great vocal pedagogue Cornelius Reid who studied at New York College of Music:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_L._Reid

    N.
    But could he sing himself? I note 'he was forced to abandon a career in singing' so he became a pedagogue. I don't know how widely his methods are practiced. Did any of the great singers of the past use his pedagogy?
    Last edited by DavidA; Sep-28-2019 at 14:36.

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  6. #125
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    'Never speak disrespectfully of society, Algernon. Only people who can’t get into it do that.'
    (Lady Bracknell in 'Importance of Being Ernest' - Oscar Wilde)
    As an anarchist-socialist, Wilde had a few "disrespectful" things to say about society.

    Also, you didn't respond to any of the substance of what I said.

    But could he sing himself? I note 'he was forced to abandon a career in singing' so he became a pedagogue. I don't know how widely his methods are practiced. Did any of the great singers of the past use his pedagogy?
    Can Yanis Nezet Seguin sing? Can Antonio Pappano? What are your credentials to question such a highly respected pedagogue? Surely the fact that he reached the status of being an Adjunct Professor at Columbia University means he knows what he's talking about. Academic institutions shouldn't be questioned. You are, after all, an anonymous critic on the internet. Why should we listen to your questions, no matter how valid they might be?

  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Conte View Post
    For those who are impressed by such things, much of what TIO demonstrate about vocal technique in their videos were in expressed in the writings of the great vocal pedagogue Cornelius Reid who studied at New York College of Music:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_L._Reid

    N.
    Thanks very much for this info.

    One of Cornelius Reid's students was George Shirley, just about the best Mozart tenor of his time!

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  9. #127
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    But could he sing himself? I note 'he was forced to abandon a career in singing' so he became a pedagogue. I don't know how widely his methods are practiced. Did any of the great singers of the past use his pedagogy?
    Asking for the "qualifications" of everyone who practices a profession or makes a statement about anything is juvenile, rude, and obnoxious. That appears to be your only purpose here. You are not capable of evaluating the qualifications of a vocal pedagogue regardless of his credentials, you have no legitimate purpose in insisting repeatedly on being given such information, you've succeeded in wrecking a potentially interesting thread with this foolish game, and in case you haven't noticed, everyone else here considers you a pest. If you keep up this pointless trolling I will take the matter up with the moderators.
    Last edited by Woodduck; Sep-28-2019 at 17:46.

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  11. #128
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivalagentenuova View Post
    As an anarchist-socialist, Wilde had a few "disrespectful" things to say about society.

    Also, you didn't respond to any of the substance of what I said.


    Can Yanis Nezet Seguin sing? Can Antonio Pappano? What are your credentials to question such a highly respected pedagogue? Surely the fact that he reached the status of being an Adjunct Professor at Columbia University means he knows what he's talking about. Academic institutions shouldn't be questioned. You are, after all, an anonymous critic on the internet. Why should we listen to your questions, no matter how valid they might be?
    That is my response. Have you any clue about academia? I'm not asking anyone to listen to me. There is someone on the internet asking me to listen to him and I'm asking who he is. You have just said yourself that all academia is bogus and flawed and then you start quoting someone's academic credentials. Aren't you being a little inconsistent?
    Last edited by DavidA; Sep-28-2019 at 17:51.

  12. #129
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revitalized Classics View Post
    Thanks very much for this info.

    One of Cornelius Reid's students was George Shirley, just about the best Mozart tenor of his time!
    Pardon? No disrespect to the gentleman but 'the best' of his time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Pardon? No disrespect to the gentleman but 'the best' of his time?
    Duh


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    That is my response.
    Insulting me is not responding to my arguments. What's more, Oscar Wilde was a radical, not a defender of Victorian institutions. So unless you are trying to support my iconoclasm by quoting lines from a caricature of "society" ladies by a radical who believed that society was so corrupt he called for the abolition of all government and private property (what would Bracknell say to that!?), your non-response made no sense.

    You have just said yourself that all academia is bogus and flawed and then you start quoting someone's academic credentials. Aren't you being a little inconsistent?
    As above, you have completely misread my comments. I was adopting your arguments to show that your own position disqualifies you from questioning Cornelius Reid. Furthermore, I did not in any way say "all academia is bogus and flawed." You are arguing against a straw man.

    Anyway, to discuss the actual topic of this thread, I couldn't find too many old recordings of Come scoglio, but I did look up coloratura sopranos of the past singing Mozart. Here are three coloraturas of the past singing "Voi che sapete":
    Nellie Melba:


    Luisa Tetrazzini:


    Adelina Patti:


    You can hear the chest voice very clearly in all three on the line "Gelo e poi sento l'alma avvampar"

    In two versions by modern mezzo-sopranos, the low notes on that line almost fall out completely:
    Joyce DiDonato:


    Elina Garanca


    Again, this seems to contradict Nezet Seguin's theory that even registers are a recent phenomenon, in Mozart singing as well as Verdi singing.
    Last edited by vivalagentenuova; Sep-28-2019 at 19:02.

  16. #132
    Senior Member BalalaikaBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revitalized Classics View Post
    Duh

    fine singer: yes. nice full voice. brings a bold style to music which is often sung in a somewhat sterile manner
    one of the best: no
    Last edited by BalalaikaBoy; Sep-28-2019 at 19:20.

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  18. #133
    Senior Member Tsaraslondon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivalagentenuova View Post
    Insulting me is not responding to my arguments. What's more, Oscar Wilde was a radical, not a defender of Victorian institutions. So unless you are trying to support my iconoclasm by quoting lines from a caricature of "society" ladies by a radical who believed that society was so corrupt he called for the abolition of all government and private property (what would Bracknell say to that!?), your non-response made no sense.


    As above, you have completely misread my comments. I was adopting your arguments to show that your own position disqualifies you from questioning Cornelius Reid. Furthermore, I did not in any way say "all academia is bogus and flawed." You are arguing against a straw man.

    Anyway, to discuss the actual topic of this thread, I couldn't find too many old recordings of Come scoglio, but I did look up coloratura sopranos of the past singing Mozart. Here are three coloraturas of the past singing "Voi che sapete":
    Nellie Melba:


    Adelina Patti:

    You can hear the chest voice very clearly in all three on the line "Gelo e poi sento l'alma avvampar"

    In two versions by modern mezzo-sopranos, the low notes on that line almost fall out completely:
    Joyce DiDonato:

    Elina Garanca


    Again, this seems to contradict Nezet Seguin's theory that even registers are a recent phenomenon, in Mozart singing as well as Verdi singing.
    Indeed you don't even need to go that far back to hear proper chest notes.





    Some people might think Baltsa uses too much, but even Von Stade uses chest when the line dips low at l'alma avvampar.
    Last edited by Tsaraslondon; Sep-28-2019 at 19:35.
    "It's not enough to have a beautiful voice." Maria Callas

  19. #134
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivalagentenuova View Post
    Insulting me is not responding to my arguments. What's more, Oscar Wilde was a radical, not a defender of Victorian institutions. So unless you are trying to support my iconoclasm by quoting lines from a caricature of "society" ladies by a radical who believed that society was so corrupt he called for the abolition of all government and private property (what would Bracknell say to that!?), your non-response made no sense.


    As above, you have completely misread my comments. I was adopting your arguments to show that your own position disqualifies you from questioning Cornelius Reid. Furthermore, I did not in any way say "all academia is bogus and flawed." You are arguing against a straw man.

    .
    Sorry but my non-response was an ironic response to an argument that made no sense to me. Making accusations about straw men doesn't make sense either. I have not in any way question Mr reid. I didn't realise he was on the videos anyway as he died in 2008
    Last edited by DavidA; Sep-28-2019 at 20:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BalalaikaBoy View Post
    fine singer: yes. nice full voice. brings a bold style to music which is often sung in a somewhat sterile manner
    one of the best: no
    I'm more enthusiastic and I don't know many other modern singers with both that rich timbre and flexibility.

    I did originally make the proviso

    Thanks very much for this info.

    One of Cornelius Reid's students was George Shirley, just about the best Mozart tenor of his time!
    Which is not to damn with feint praise but it is to contextualise his worth and, as a result, the success of Cornelius Reid's tutelage.

    Given that Shirley, unlike say Jadlowker, was not born at the time when bel canto was practiced everywhere: his flexibility is admirable.

    Given that Shirley's was the first generation to bring roles like Ferrando and Idomeneo to theatres the size of the Met and attempt the bravura style: he met the challenge admirably.

    Comparing him to contemporaries, I prefer him both to specialists like Richard Lewis and international stars like Alfredo Kraus (Cosi) and Gedda (Cosi and Idomeneo) or, much later, Pavarotti and Domingo. At any rate, he was competing with the best of his time.

    If he was younger, he would perhaps have benefited from historically informed practice - we don't know.

    Long story short, he was a top rank artist and I don't think it is a stretch to say his name adds lustre to the reputation of his teacher/ that tradition.
    Last edited by Revitalized Classics; Sep-28-2019 at 19:57.

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