Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 56

Thread: Late Romantic HIP: What Are We Waiting For?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Ras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    730
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Glenn Gould once joked that HIP didn't really deserve its name before the hipsters played Rachmaninov's concertos on a turn of the century Steinway!
    "I only have a hunch in what I've become expert." - Leonard Cohen

  2. Likes superhorn liked this post
  3. #32
    Senior Member Ras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    730
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Expecting a new view of Late Romantic music from Baroque HIPsters is making the same mistake once again: first critics made the mistake of leaving the Baroque repertoire to musicians schooled in Late Romanticism - and now we're "topsy-turvying" that mistake by leaving the Late Romantic repertoire to Baroque experts.
    "I only have a hunch in what I've become expert." - Leonard Cohen

  4. Likes superhorn liked this post
  5. #33
    Senior Member Enthusiast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    5,973
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    ^ There may be some truth in that. Who do you have in mind?

  6. #34
    Senior Member Ras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    730
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiast View Post
    ^ There may be some truth in that. Who do you have in mind?
    Romanticizing Baroque:
    For example: Karajan's recording of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos and Eugen Jochum's recording of Bach B minor mass.

    "Baroquecizing" of Romantic reperoire:
    For example: Gardiner's and Harnoncourt's recordings of the Schumann symphonies.
    "I only have a hunch in what I've become expert." - Leonard Cohen

  7. #35
    Senior Member Enthusiast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    5,973
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    ^ OK. I agree about Karajan and Jochum (although I still quite like the latter). I'm not so sure about the Gardiner as I don't hear much in his approach that we had not had before (even if it sounds a little different). As for Harnoncourt, I only quite like his Schumann symphonies but it is a long time since I stopped thinking of him as a Baroque specialist. He has shown us that he has many faces!

  8. Likes Woodduck, Baron Scarpia liked this post
  9. #36
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    13,523
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ras View Post
    Romanticizing Baroque:
    For example: Karajan's recording of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos and Eugen Jochum's recording of Bach B minor mass.

    "Baroquecizing" of Romantic reperoire:
    For example: Gardiner's and Harnoncourt's recordings of the Schumann symphonies.
    It's interesting that Karajan's earlier 1950s recording of Bach's mass was considered very progressive and almost 'HIP' in its day in regard to tempi and general leanness of approach. He himself was disappointed with his later DG recording. The EMI is worth hearing.

  10. #37
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    14,498
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ras View Post
    Expecting a new view of Late Romantic music from Baroque HIPsters is making the same mistake once again: first critics made the mistake of leaving the Baroque repertoire to musicians schooled in Late Romanticism - and now we're "topsy-turvying" that mistake by leaving the Late Romantic repertoire to Baroque experts.
    Who better to offer a "new view" and challenge tired, and possibly false, traditions? The accumulating legacy of recordings has given us a great range of interpretive choices, and the range is only getting wider. It isn't surprising that musicians who began exploring HIP in Baroque music decades ago should find their area of interest expanding forward in time into the 19th century, and although their efforts have been variable - just like their efforts in Baroque music - the urge to explore is all to the good. Gardiner and Harnoncourt are both versatile musicians who I think have done some nice work in Romantic repertoire. I've enjoyed them both in Schumann and Mendelssohn, and Gardiner's period-instrument Berlioz, complete with ophecleide and serpent, is great fun. I haven't heard Harnoncourt's Bruckner, but it seems to have its partisans. I'm not fond of the work of Roger Norrington in the late Romantic repertoire he's attempted; his Wagner and Tchaikovsky are anemic and even perverse, seemingly more concerned to avoid Romantic expression than to understand what it is.

    We have to remember that Romanticism was not a static phenomenon and that performance styles certainly changed in the course of the 19th century and into the 20th. It's unlikely that Mahler's ideas on conducting would have been wholly endorsed by Mendelssohn. The important thing for any musician trying to adopt historic practices is to get beyond scholarly "correctness," find a strong sense of personal identification with the music, and play with the conviction that the new approaches she is using are illuminating the music's character as she feels it. There will always be disagreement there, leading to a diversity of results, and that's surely a good thing. After all, musicians contemporary with any music disagree about how it should be played.

  11. Likes superhorn liked this post
  12. #38
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    14,498
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Here's an amazing example of de-synchronizing melody and accompaniment. We hear pianists do this sort of thing in Romantic music, but hearing an orchestra do it, and in Beethoven no less, blew me away.

    Beethoven: Symphony #6, "Pastoral" - 2nd movement (begins at 8:30)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwi8P3l4FU0

  13. Likes AeolianStrains liked this post
  14. #39
    Senior Member Baron Scarpia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,480
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ras View Post
    "Baroquecizing" of Romantic reperoire:
    For example: Gardiner's and Harnoncourt's recordings of the Schumann symphonies.
    I haven't heard Gardiner, but I can't imagine what you could mean saying Harnoncourt "baroquecizes" Schumann. He works miracles making the music explode with infectious rhythmic vitality and orchestral color.

  15. Likes Woodduck liked this post
  16. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    6,001
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Here's an amazing example of de-synchronizing melody and accompaniment. We hear pianists do this sort of thing in Romantic music, but hearing an orchestra do it, and in Beethoven no less, blew me away.

    Beethoven: Symphony #6, "Pastoral" - 2nd movement (begins at 8:30)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwi8P3l4FU0

    Yes. This sort of music is very much off my radar now but when I used to be interested in it I was a great fan of Mengelberg, especially in that symphony.

  17. Likes millionrainbows liked this post
  18. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    755
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    There are plenty of recordings where orchestras used instruments of the time and perceived practices on late romantic music. Here is one example:

    https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-Nutc...0541433&sr=8-1

    The main issue with this is there is little difference in the sound of the orchestra and there isn't the body of "evidence" for late romantic music that seems to exist for earlier music, such as that of Bach's time.

    I think that evidence is faulty anyway. In the case of Vivaldi, a composer whose music to me has been ruined by historically informed practitioners, almost nothing is known about his life and music. He wrote most of it at and for a school for wayward girls. In the main he did not write for professional musicians. Yet HIP practitioners think his music should be played at 120 or presto or however you want to define it -- even though much of it was written for these girls with no musical training.

    The fact is the historically informed movement is little more than a fashion like wide lapels or long skirts. Music changes fashion over time like everything else. HIP was preceded in the 1960s by literalism and by the first Baroque authenticity movement in the 1950s. Before that there was humanism and a time when conductors could do anything they wanted with scores, a fashion that was in place for a century. Leopold Stokowski was the last living relic of the era.

  19. Likes superhorn, AeolianStrains liked this post
  20. #42
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    13,285
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Thanks goes out to Mandryka for posting the Brahms symphonies on Claves (that site is very nice), and the "straight" violin rendition of the Brahms sonata. I've ordered both of these.

    Speaking of gut strings, The Smithsonian Players are a good way to hear what it sounds like.

    Strauss Metamorphosis Smithsonian 200 dpi .jpeg

  21. Likes Mandryka liked this post
  22. #43
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    13,285
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by larold View Post
    ...In the case of Vivaldi, a composer whose music to me has been ruined by historically informed practitioners, almost nothing is known about his life and music. He wrote most of it at and for a school for wayward girls. In the main he did not write for professional musicians. Yet HIP practitioners think his music should be played at 120 or presto or however you want to define it -- even though much of it was written for these girls with no musical training.
    I only know what I like. For me, Vivaldi was wallpaper until I heard Giuliano Carmignola. He brought the music to life for me.


    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  23. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    6,001
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by larold View Post
    I think that evidence is

    The fact is .
    Rejecting HIP in music is like rejecting truth in conversation.
    Last edited by Mandryka; Oct-08-2019 at 17:56.

  24. Likes Bulldog liked this post
  25. #45
    Senior Member gardibolt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    1,401
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabulin View Post
    A former student of Liszt remarked that Tausig played more precisely than the master, and if I recall the context of this comment, it has been said as if it Liszt often playing less perfectly than other greats was a known fact.
    I would take this quote with a huge grain of salt; the vast majority of Liszt's pupils were taken on when he was quite elderly and often very ill. I doubt very much it reflects his pianism of 40 years earlier.
    Hours of unrecorded, unpublished and unknown Beethoven works at The Unheard Beethoven

  26. Likes Fabulin liked this post
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •