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Thread: Verdi baritones

  1. #286
    Senior Member wkasimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonetan View Post
    With that in mind, who has really excelled in both?
    I don't believe that Tibbett sang any Wagner other than Wolfram on stage, but he did record an excellent Wotan's Farewell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonetan View Post
    Ahh this must be why it's so rare for a dramatic baritone to excel in both Wagner & Verdi in their careers.

    With that in mind, who has really excelled in both?
    Giuseppe Taddei recorded Hans Sachs and the Dutchman and a great many of the Verdi baritone roles.

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    On closer inspection, there are a variety of extracts and complete recordings with Eberhard Wächter in Verdi roles - I didn't realise there was a Ballo, Boccanegra, Falstaff (as Ford), Rigoletto extracts as well as his Rodrigo in Don Carlo. I've not heard these so cannot be sure if he 'excelled' in this rep besides his German roles?

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  7. #289
    Senior Member wkasimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonetan View Post
    With that in mind, who has really excelled in both?
    While I don't think that Verdi and Wagner are central to his career, Gerald Finley has been a successful Amfortas, Sachs, and Iago.

    Similarly, Peter Mattei has been acclaimed for his Wolfram and Amfortas, and is probably the best Posa on record.

    And while I don't think much James Morris' Iago, he certainly sang it, and some people thought it successful.

    Sergei Leiferkus sang both Alberich and Iago, but that's probably not what you're looking for....l

    Hans Hotter sang quite a bit of Verdi early in his career - Iago and Falstaff, perhaps other roles.

    And Josef Metternich, a fine Dutchman and Telramund, sang a lot of Verdi.
    Last edited by wkasimer; Jan-24-2020 at 04:42.

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    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    This conversation made me wonder about Hermann Uhde, a superb Wagnerian I've long admired, known especially for his Dutchman, Telramund and Klingsor at Bayreuth, as well as his Wozzeck. It wasn't a conventionally beautiful voice, not particularly rich or warm, but it had a unique, biting timbre that demanded roles with plenty of character. He was a superior musician and interpreter. Here's his great Dutchman

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC7CwEFQNQE

    and some Rigoletto (in German)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl2fiiPgMik

    Probably no one's idea of a Verdi voice, but probably quite effective in the theater.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    This conversation made me wonder about Hermann Uhde, a superb Wagnerian I've long admired, known especially for his Dutchman, Telramund and Klingsor at Bayreuth, as well as his Wozzeck. It wasn't a conventionally beautiful voice, not particularly rich or warm, but it had a unique, biting timbre that demanded roles with plenty of character. He was a superior musician and interpreter. Here's his great Dutchman

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC7CwEFQNQE

    and some Rigoletto (in German)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl2fiiPgMik

    Probably no one's idea of a Verdi voice, but probably quite effective in the theater.
    Uhde gave some hair-raising performances - I think he was terrific. Can imagine him as a Macbeth or Iago.
    Thanks for the suggestion! I'll be trawling through Spotify and my records for him

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  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkasimer View Post
    Joseph Schwarz.
    Thanks for exposing me to Herr Schwarz & thanks to everyone who's taken the time to answer my question! It seems that since Schwarz there have been Wagner singers who have sprinkled in some Verdi & vise versa, but no singer who's core rep looks like Wotan, Iago, Dutchman, Macbeth, Sachs, di Luna for instance. Even more hard to come by if I specify 'all sung in the original language'. It would take a special singer with a big range to pull it off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonetan View Post
    Thanks for exposing me to Herr Schwarz & thanks to everyone who's taken the time to answer my question! It seems that since Schwarz there have been Wagner singers who have sprinkled in some Verdi & vise versa, but no singer who's core rep looks like Wotan, Iago, Dutchman, Macbeth, Sachs, di Luna for instance. Even more hard to come by if I specify 'all sung in the original language'. It would take a special singer with a big range to pull it off.
    I've contributed to enough opera and classical forums to know that mentioning Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau at this point is like lighting a blue touch paper...

    So...

    I'll mention Fischer-Dieskau, perhaps uniquely in recent times, recorded complete or extracts from all these parts in the original languages and hazard that the results were/are... controversial?

    ...and now run away before all hell breaks loose
    Last edited by Revitalized Classics; Jan-24-2020 at 13:07.

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  16. #294
    Senior Member wkasimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revitalized Classics View Post
    I'll mention Fischer-Dieskau, perhaps uniquely in recent times, recorded complete or extracts from all these parts in the original languages and hazard that the results were/are... controversial?
    "Controversial" is one way to put it...

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  18. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revitalized Classics View Post
    I've contributed to enough opera and classical forums to know that mentioning Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau at this point is like lighting a blue touch paper...

    So...

    I'll mention Fischer-Dieskau, perhaps uniquely in recent times, recorded complete or extracts from all these parts in the original languages and hazard that the results were/are... controversial?

    ...and now run away before all hell breaks loose
    I like some of Fischer-Dieskau's opera recordings of both Verdi and Wagner (but know that few here agree with me). His Wolfram and Telramund are superb in my opinion (and even his Dutchman works for me, although his voice is somewhat slight for that role). When it comes to Verdi I think his Macbeth and Rodrigo are superb and I also admire his Rigoletto. Where I agree with those who don't like him in opera other than Mozart or Strauss, is that Wotan and Scarpia didn't work for him. (I haven't heard his Germont or his Iago.) Artists that pay attention to the text of an opera and bring it to life always fascinate me, though.

    N.

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    Senior Member Bonetan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revitalized Classics View Post
    I've contributed to enough opera and classical forums to know that mentioning Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau at this point is like lighting a blue touch paper...

    So...

    I'll mention Fischer-Dieskau, perhaps uniquely in recent times, recorded complete or extracts from all these parts in the original languages and hazard that the results were/are... controversial?

    ...and now run away before all hell breaks loose
    Ya, his was one of the 1st names I thought of too! He did them all, but should he have? I think the majority of us think not. BUT he might prove to be the best answer to the question...

    How was DFD's top in the Verdi & bottom in the Wotan/Dutchman? Probably a tough question to answer unless you were specifically listening for it, I know lol
    Last edited by Bonetan; Jan-24-2020 at 19:09.

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  21. #297
    Senior Member wkasimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Conte View Post
    I like some of Fischer-Dieskau's opera recordings of both Verdi and Wagner (but know that few here agree with me). His Wolfram and Telramund are superb in my opinion (and even his Dutchman works for me, although his voice is somewhat slight for that role). When it comes to Verdi I think his Macbeth and Rodrigo are superb and I also admire his Rigoletto. Where I agree with those who don't like him in opera other than Mozart or Strauss, is that Wotan and Scarpia didn't work for him. (I haven't heard his Germont or his Iago.) Artists that pay attention to the text of an opera and bring it to life always fascinate me, though.
    I'm pretty sure that I've heard every one of his recordings of Wagner and Verdi over the years. The only ones that I find acceptable are a 1948 Posa, in German under Fricsay, and his Wolfram on various recordings. Everywhere else, he is both underpowered and fussy.

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    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkasimer View Post
    I'm pretty sure that I've heard every one of his recordings of Wagner and Verdi over the years. The only ones that I find acceptable are a 1948 Posa, in German under Fricsay, and his Wolfram on various recordings. Everywhere else, he is both underpowered and fussy.
    Besides his Wolfram, I do like his Telramund, second only to Uhde's, and his Kurwenal under Furtwangler, recorded early when his voice was at its freshest; he makes the character seem younger than Suthaus's Tristan, but I don't mind. His Gunther for Solti is also good; the character sounds noble but weak, which seems to me just right. None of these are "helden" roles that require the pouring out of sheer vocal abundance. I haven't bothered to listen to most of his Verdi; I can just tell I wouldn't like it. It may be hard to say exactly what a Verdi baritone IS, but F-D is certainly an example of what one ISN'T.
    Last edited by Woodduck; Jan-24-2020 at 22:17.

  23. #299
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    Excellent Verdi baritone. What a timbre! Definitely singing for the stage and not the microphone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Besides his Wolfram, I do like his Telramund, second only to Uhde's, and his Kurwenal under Furtwangler, recorded early when his voice was at its freshest; he makes the character seem younger than Suthaus's Tristan, but I don't mind. His Gunther for Solti is also good; the character sounds noble but weak, which seems to me just right. None of these are "helden" roles that require the pouring out of sheer vocal abundance. I haven't bothered to listen to most of his Verdi; I can just tell I wouldn't like it. It may be hard to say exactly what a Verdi baritone IS, but F-D is certainly an example of what one ISN'T.
    I agree. (I'd forgotten about his superb Gunther.) Whilst it is counterintuitive he does make an excellent Macbeth, but then in some respects the murderous couple aren't quite like other Verdi soprano and baritone roles. He famously wanted a soprano with a dark, ugly sound for the Lady, but do we know the qualities he had in mind for Mr Macbeth? It seems a part tailor made for an acting baritone rather than the usual Verdi baritone and DFD and Milnes are the only two singers I genuinely like in the role. (The live recording with Gobbi was made on an off night for him, so we can only dream what he would have done with the part when he was on the top of his game.)

    N.

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