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Thread: I am a communist, very much on the left, but he's still a favourite composer of mine

  1. #121
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    I think I've made a breakthrough, finally, these exchanges are always beneficial.

    Thanks to all who participated, especially Woodduck, it seems like it's been months he's helped me.

  2. #122
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    Wagner has into the occult and the mystical, the whole Nazi movement was. You can rest assured that he didn't write or say everything he thought.
    [Deep sigh...] "Rest assured" that Wagner was not "into" the "occult" and the "mystical." Some of his opera plots contain magic and myth, if that's what you're trying to say. Nor was "the whole Nazi movement" into whatever it is you mean by what you're saying. Most of the Nazi movement consisted of power-hungry thugs who may have entertained, or felt obligated to give lip service to, a few vague, quasi-religious notions justifying their nationalist and supremacist goals. Attributions of true occultism are products of the postwar literature, and belong to the modern fascination with Nazism that romanticizes the subject, whether approvingly or not.

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  4. #123
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    I think I've made a breakthrough, finally, these exchanges are always beneficial.

    Thanks to all who participated, especially Woodduck, it seems like it's been months he's helped me.
    You did seem to need a good deal of help. I hope that the cure was complete and that we are all now free.


  5. #124
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    [Deep sigh...] "Rest assured" that Wagner was not "into" the "occult" and the "mystical."
    Hmm.. yet this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    The gold, like some great glowing eye, cycles between sleeping and waking, is apparently eternal, and will remain unperturbed and untouchable until and unless some being capable of performing the most unthinkable act - renouncing love - gains by that evil resolve the power to steal the gold and forge it into a ring which will make him master of the world.
    Sounds a lot like the veiled solar symbolism we find in many ancient writings including the Bible. In other words there is hidden knowledge placed in these works, that is precisely what the occult is. This particular story even suggests that through committing an act of ultimate evil one can gain power and enter into a kind of pact with the sun. Early civilizations such as the Aztecs used to commit human sacrifices to solar deities. The concept described in Wagner's ring ties directly into the dark occult.

    The 'one eye' we see in Wotan is similar solar symbolism. Where else do we see 'one eye'? Above the pyramid? How about the concept of 'money' itself, the word itself is creepily close to 'mono eye'.

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  7. #125
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    Hmm.. yet this:



    Sounds a lot like the veiled solar symbolism we find in many ancient writings including the Bible. In other words there is hidden knowledge placed in these works, that is precisely what the occult is. This particular story even suggests that through committing an act of ultimate evil one can gain power and enter into a kind of pact with the sun. Early civilizations such as the Aztecs used to commit human sacrifices to solar deities. The concept described in Wagner's ring ties directly into the dark occult.

    The 'one eye' we see in Wotan is similar solar symbolism. Where else do we see 'one eye'? Above the pyramid? How about the concept of 'money' itself, the word itself is creepily close to 'mono eye'.
    Nice observations. I wouldn't say that Wagner's use of myth is equivalent to being "into the occult" (1996d's phrase); he was neither a believer nor a participant in occult practices. But there are archetypes which he understood intuitively and which he knew how to bring to life artistically.

    Not too sure about that "mono eye" thing...

  8. #126
    Senior Member Dimace's Avatar
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    Wagner = Nazi
    Wagner = anti-Semite

    and now:

    Wagner = Commie!!!!!

    Surely, the next thread will be something like ''Was Wagner a Satanist?''
    „Es gibt drei Arten von Pianisten: jüdische Pianisten, homosexuelle Pianisten -- und schlechte Pianisten.“ V. Horowitz

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  10. #127
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimace View Post
    Wagner = Nazi
    Wagner = anti-Semite

    and now:

    Wagner = Commie!!!!!

    Surely, the next thread will be something like ''Was Wagner a Satanist?''
    Well, he was an anti-vivisectionist and a would-be vegetarian. That should get him into trouble with somebody. The fur industry, maybe?

    To be fair, Wagner WAS an antisemite, he was NOT a Nazi, and the OP doesn't claim that he was a communist. But he wasn't far from it early on, participating in the revolutionary activities of 1848 and having to self-exile to Switzerland to avoid arrest and possible execution.

    If that had happened J. R. R. Tolkien would have had to invent the Ring of Power all by himself, and all dwarves would be cute little Hobbits.
    Last edited by Woodduck; Jan-20-2020 at 18:02.

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  12. #128
    Senior Member Dimace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Well, he was an anti-vivisectionist and a would-be vegetarian. That should get him into trouble with somebody. The fur industry, maybe?

    To be fair, Wagner WAS an antisemite, he was NOT a Nazi, and the OP doesn't claim that he was a communist. But he wasn't far from it early on, participating in the revolutionary activities of 1848 and having to self-exile to Switzerland to avoid arrest and possible execution.

    If that had happened J. R. R. Tolkien would have had to invent the Ring of Power all by himself, and all dwarves would be cute little Hobbits.
    I trust your opinion, my dearest. Your vast amount of musical knowledge is something I seriously count when I read your excellent posts. The fact that you almost never use third part opinions (online text copy/paste) is one more plus. I'm pianist and music collector and not Historiker. This means I have a lot to learn, not only for Wagner but also for the other big guys of the music. But I want to learn what really matters and counts about these TITANS. Their GREAT moments and not their weaknesses. If I want the last I can look the mirror. I really don't like the modern way of thinking, which is oriented to the small and neglects the great. The violation of the German History for 15 years has driven many experts and not to very personal conclusions about many great personalities of the past. There are people who were kissing Führers hands because they LIKED to do it, and after the War they continued to do their jobs and after their death they have seen also monuments for them in public places! And other, like Richard, they were unborn when the Nazis came to power, to be accused of I don't know what. Thanks, my dearest!
    „Es gibt drei Arten von Pianisten: jüdische Pianisten, homosexuelle Pianisten -- und schlechte Pianisten.“ V. Horowitz

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  14. #129
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimace View Post
    I want to learn what really matters and counts about these TITANS. Their GREAT moments and not their weaknesses. If I want the last I can look the mirror. I really don't like the modern way of thinking, which is oriented to the small and neglects the great.
    I like your spirit. We live in an age of personal destruction, where disgrace is only a tweet away, an allegation is as good as an indictment, and reality is whatever enough people share on facebook. It isn't a world I expected when I was young, and it pains me that the young must now take it as their reality and try to find a way to discover human greatness without much in the way of example. But there is greatness to be found if we can free ourselves of the prejudice of cynicism.

    How many of us now would fail to be surprised and confused to learn that when the rabbi father of Hermann Levi, the conductor to whom Wagner entrusted the premiere of Parsifal, expressed misgivings about Wagner's known antisemitism, Levi wrote his father that "Wagner is the best and noblest of men ... I thank God daily for the privilege to be close to such a man. It is the most beautiful experience of my life"? This, from a Jew who worked as closely with Wagner as anyone could? We can only wonder how such words of praise could refer to the very man portrayed in our popular media as a virtual Nazi, and described right on this forum as one so depraved that he simply couldn't have avoided injecting shallow Jewish caricatures into archetypal myths and romances about love, passion, loyalty, betrayal, death, and redemption.

    Humans tend to find what they're looking for. What would we find if we got back to looking for the best in humanity?
    Last edited by Woodduck; Jan-21-2020 at 09:01.

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