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Thread: Vale Sir Roger Scruton

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    It seems the "purely political" emerged here, though in response to a comment about Scruton's conservatism, and consequently 'inviting' a counter comment from me. I wonder what should be posted in a thread about Scruton's passing. A mere nod of respect? A thorough explanation of his life and works? A critical analysis of his values and politics?

    What is the best way to honour the passing of any public individual? How can we discuss Scruton without noting the controversy he prompted, and, almost inevitably, replicate some of that dispute?
    Bravo. Excellent comment.

    This is the brave, new 'progressive' world that Sir Roger Scruton was heavily critiquing in his work, inter alia:

    Child suicide rate increases in Queensland
    There were 37 suicides of people under 18 years in Queensland last financial year.

    By CRAIG JOHNSTONE
    JANUARY 15, 2020

    Suicide remains the leading cause of death among Queensland children outside of disease or other natural causes, and the rate is increasing.

    The state government’s latest report on deaths of children and young people found that there were 37 suicides of people under 18 years last financial year, the highest rate since the state began the Child Death Register in 2004.

    The report, released on Wednesday, said the rate of child suicides was a “marked increase from previous years, which ranged from 15 to 26 per year”.

    Transport was the second leading cause of child death with 22 recorded in the state in the 2018-19 year.

    Sixteen children and young people drowned, with five 1–4-year-olds drowning in private swimming pools.

    Seven children died as a result of suspected or confirmed assault and neglect.

    The report, compiled each year by the Queensland Family and Child Commission, found that there were a total of 386 deaths of children and young people registered in Queensland last financial year.

    Of these, 68 per cent, or 261, were the result of disease or other natural causes.

    Family and Child Commissioner Cheryl Vardon said suicide was a tragedy.

    “It deeply impacts family, friends and the community,” she said.

    “A suicide can also cause a ripple effect, affecting the mental health of others. While some young people may have been struggling with their mental health for some time, other deaths come with few warnings. This makes preventing suicide a challenge.”

    (The Australian)
    Last edited by Christabel; Jan-15-2020 at 12:32.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Since we're now in a discussion of the increase in childhood suicide rates, I attribute much of it to Internet social media cyberbullying, which has devastated the feeling of self-worth among millions of children. The NRA has done its part also here in the USA by so saturating our social space with guns that suicide is now easy as pie and certain of result. Whereas before guns--especially handguns--became so abundant, people tried hanging, poison, wrist-slashing, etc.--all of which were either less inherently lethal or capable of quick intervention. Real conservatives will be strongly in favor of examining both social media and our gun obsession and proposing both education and legislation to ameliorate these and similar societal ills.

  3. #33
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    I think I've been misunderstood. Noting Scruton's sometimes controversial views does mean rehearsing them in detail here. Nor does it merit tedious side swipes at those who hold a particular opinion.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

  4. #34
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    I think I've been misunderstood. Noting Scruton's sometimes controversial views does mean rehearsing them in detail here. Nor does it merit tedious side swipes at those who hold a particular opinion.
    Excellent point. The introduction of this thread on Roger Scruton reminds me of the similar thread bemoaning the passing of David Koch (of the Koch Brothers)--we had a similar bit of ideology passed along with the elegiac remembrance of the deceased, thus inviting commentary (positive and negative) from those with pronounced views on the deceased's life, views, and effect upon his/her society. As I noted then, the Groups are likely the better place to ride such hobbyhorses. Or, we should be more inured to such discussions following the paths that they do.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Jacck's Avatar
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    a year ago or so we discussed a docu in the main forum - it was in the context of beauty vs modern art. I watched it then, but did not know it was by Scruton

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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacck View Post
    a year ago or so we discussed a docu in the main forum - it was in the context of beauty vs modern art. I watched it then, but did not know it was by Scruton
    RIP Sir Roger Scruton ... I've read some of the philosopher Roger Scruton's writings on aesthetics, especially music, and always have come away impressed. For people like me who don't agree with his politics, I still recommend his aesthetics work as readable and thought-provoking. It is sad that now some people basically are trying to do away with aesthetics -- for classical music lovers there has been a lot of high-quality, sensible work published in the past few decades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amfortas View Post
    Personally, I'm good with tolerance and inclusiveness. But if you have better platitudes to offer, I'm happy to listen.
    Maybe it's because I'm from the extraordinarily cynical generation that was raised on and endured the Iraq and Afghanistan boondoggles as well as the Great Recession (as it is termed) but I'm not very good with any platitudes that come from Washington DC's backside, otherwise known as the national news media. But even as far as platitudes go tolerance and inclusiveness are too feminine for my taste, too insipid even.

    What we need is a healthy dose of intolerance.
    Last edited by bz3; Jan-16-2020 at 02:26.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacck View Post
    the most difficult idea to drop is the idea of American exceptionalism. That idea was never true during the whole history, though it was reinvigorated by the objective fact that America became the strongest nation on Earth, though the reasons were largely incidental (WW2). But out of this idea some national myths developed, that the US is special and different and thus infallible, and thus has the right to impose its will and rules on other nations etc. It will be difficult to drop this idea and start being more realistic about itself and own place in the world. The more the relative US power is going to wane, the more some people will want to prove American strength through further wars and demonstration of force. And that could be dangerous.



    I also believe that the left took its crusade too far. I am for full equality before the law and equality of oportunity irrespective of race, gender and religion, but I am against the SJW agenda, the cult of diversity, affirmative action, political correctness, policing of speech on campuses, toxic feminism etc. I certainly think that society has much more pressing problems than this.
    Fair enough but I think as is often the case with continental Europeans you assume far too much as to how most Americans feel about being world police/the middle east's bullyboy. It's true there are mostly older Americans who really believe in the Pax Americana but we were always a reluctant empire and I seriously doubt even 25% of under-40 Americans think this ridiculous charade is sustainable, let alone desirable.

  10. #39
    Senior Member amfortas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bz3 View Post
    What we need is a healthy dose of intolerance.
    Sounds like you're off to a good start.
    Alan

  11. #40
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    I think I've been misunderstood. Noting Scruton's sometimes controversial views does mean rehearsing them in detail here. Nor does it merit tedious side swipes at those who hold a particular opinion.
    Sorry. I did of course mean "does not mean rehearsing them here".
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

  12. #41
    Senior Member Jacck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bz3 View Post
    Fair enough but I think as is often the case with continental Europeans you assume far too much as to how most Americans feel about being world police/the middle east's bullyboy. It's true there are mostly older Americans who really believe in the Pax Americana but we were always a reluctant empire and I seriously doubt even 25% of under-40 Americans think this ridiculous charade is sustainable, let alone desirable.
    I think that overall it is true that Pax Americana was good for the world, that the US was a relatively benign empire that also did a lot of good things for the world, and in any survey in most countries in the world, people think that American leadership was good for the world. I think that too. People who really destroyed America were Bush jr, Cheney, Rumsfeld et co. Some people say that "Trump is the worst president in US history". I do not think it is true. That honor belongs to Bush. The invasion of Iraq was the worst strategic mistake the US ever did in its entire history, and it is also ultimately the reason for the likely coming collapse of the empire. The damage was not only to human life, but also that it eroded America morally both domestically and internationally. And I am convinced that the end of Pax Americana will be BAD for the world.

    Concerning the exceptionalism. That in itself is very unexceptional. All nations suffer from similar delusions and the bigger the nation, the bigger the delusions. Also, not all people in a nation are the same. What worries me is that if the situation in US gets any worse (like people get even poorer, economic stagnation, crisis etc), then this toxic mix of nationalist myths, religious delusions and empoverishment could lead to actual fascism. This was exactly the situation in Germany in 1920s-1930s, ie poor economy + nationalist delusions.

    Anyway, we live in very turbulent times. It is likely not only the end of the American empire
    https://theintercept.com/2017/09/24/...-donald-trump/
    but Russia and China are on very shaky ground too
    https://oilprice.com/Geopolitics/Int...fore-2020.html

    I think we are on the brink of a new tectonic shift in world order (like between the 19th and 20th century) and nobody knows yet what the new world will look like. We can only hope that it will be based on the values of human liberty, human rights and cooperation between the nations.

  13. #42
    Senior Member Room2201974's Avatar
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    Ahhhh,nevermind, toomuchcoffeerant!!!
    Last edited by Room2201974; Jan-16-2020 at 14:30.
    "He who makes songs without feeling spoils both his words and his music. " ~ Guillaume de Machaut

    "Music that is born complex is not inherently better or worse than music that is born simple." ~ Aaron Copland.

  14. #43
    Senior Member WildThing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Knox View Post
    RIP Sir Roger Scruton ... I've read some of the philosopher Roger Scruton's writings on aesthetics, especially music, and always have come away impressed. For people like me who don't agree with his politics, I still recommend his aesthetics work as readable and thought-provoking. It is sad that now some people basically are trying to do away with aesthetics -- for classical music lovers there has been a lot of high-quality, sensible work published in the past few decades.
    Totally agreed. Here's a really stimulating discussion on Wagner's operas that any Wagner lover will be able to appreciateL


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  16. #44
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    Sir Roger was an accomplished pianist and organist, so says Douglas Murray in his tribute to RS in this week's "Spectator".

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