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Thread: Okay, like the mod said, let's continue our discussion about Wagner and nazis...

  1. #556
    Senior Member annaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    This analysis is confusing. I think the adjective 'flawed' in Woodduck's post referred only to 'matrix', not to 'German'. I don't think Woodduck was saying that 'Germans were flawed'.
    Yes, I don’t think that saying that German social matrix was flawed excludes the possibility that other systems were as well. However, I think Woodduck was referring to the antisemitism as the flaw of the matrix. Germans certainly were not the only ones who had this “flaw” in their matrix. In fact, there’s no such flawless cultural matrix in the countries at all, even in our contemprary world. Being Estonian, the cruelties USSR strike me much more personally and I find it extremely difficult to say who was worse. However, by no means would I say that Germans were inherently more flawed than anyone else. Those were the flaws of human nature which were presented in their extreme form.
    Last edited by annaw; Sep-26-2020 at 09:39.

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  3. #557
    Member En Passant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by annaw View Post
    Yes, I don’t think that saying that German social matrix was flawed excludes the possibility that other systems were as well. However, I think Woodduck was referring to the antisemitism as the flaw of the matrix. Germans certainly were not the only ones who had this “flaw” in their matrix. In fact, there’s no such flawless cultural matrix in the countries at all, even in our contemprary world. Being Estonian, the cruelties USSR strike me much more personally and I find it extremely difficult to say who was worse. However, by no means would I say that Germans were inherently more flawed than anyone else. Those were the flaws of human nature which were presented in their extreme form.
    I agree and if I may say off topic but I love Estonia I have many friends there and it is a favourite destination of mine.


    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    This analysis is confusing. I think the adjective 'flawed' in Woodduck's post referred only to 'matrix', not to 'German'. I don't think Woodduck was saying that 'Germans were flawed'.
    I perhaps didn’t construct my argument well it was late and I was p**sed off. The social matrix or culture or however you want to categorise it is a product of the people. The Germans are uniquely singled out as an example. You rarely if ever see Shostakovich labeled as problematic due to his associations with Stalin. Who I would argue did far more evil in his time than Hitler. It just feels to me Wagner and the German people are unfairly tarnished by the Nazis in a way no one else is.

    I don’t feel like getting into a big debate about it if you disagree that’s fine of course.

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  5. #558
    MacLeod
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    Quote Originally Posted by En Passant View Post
    You rarely if ever see Shostakovich labeled as problematic due to his associations with Stalin
    You often see DSCH labeled as problematic due to his cooperation with Stalin's regime, though not to the same extent as Wagner. DSCH never wrote a diatribe against a section of society that he hated, so he's unlikely to attract the same type of criticism.

    https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/...-almost-purged

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    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    You often see DSCH labeled as problematic due to his cooperation with Stalin's regime, though not to the same extent as Wagner. DSCH never wrote a diatribe against a section of society that he hated, so he's unlikely to attract the same type of criticism.
    Terribly minor point: DSCH was contemporaneous with Stalin; Wagner was not contemporaneous with the Nazis. Just thought I'd mention it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbsolutelyBaching View Post
    Terribly minor point.
    Agreed .

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    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    Agreed .
    Well, of course, it's quite the major point... If not, indeed, the only point.

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  11. #562
    MacLeod
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbsolutelyBaching View Post
    Well, of course, it's quite the major point... If not, indeed, the only point.
    In what way does it impact on the point being argued between me and En Passant

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    Senior Member fluteman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbsolutelyBaching View Post
    Terribly minor point: DSCH was contemporaneous with Stalin; Wagner was not contemporaneous with the Nazis. Just thought I'd mention it.
    The alleged connection is between Wagner's music and the Nazis, or possibly Wagner's ideology and the Nazis. Obviously, he was not contemporary with them. Nothing I've seen in this long thread or anywhere else suggests the connection is very strong or significant, though I won't pretend it isn't there. I guess I have to read an entire book about it, now that an author I respect has written one. Sigh.

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    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fluteman View Post
    The alleged connection is between Wagner's music and the Nazis, or possibly Wagner's ideology and the Nazis. Obviously, he was not contemporary with them. Nothing I've seen in this long thread or anywhere else suggests the connection is very strong or significant, though I won't pretend it isn't there. I guess I have to read an entire book about it, now that an author I respect has written one. Sigh.
    Yes, I know it was obvious that Wagner wasn't contemporary with them. That was the point. It was a little joke at the expense of those who sometimes appear to wish they were more contemporaneous than they were (and who do assert a much stronger connection than you're positing).

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    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    In what way does it impact on the point being argued between me and En Passant
    Sigh.

    EP said (paraphrasing) "Shostakovich is not tarred with the brush of Stalin as Wagner is of the Nazis"
    You said (ditto) "Shostakovich is so tarred, to some extent, but not as much as Wagner is regarding the Nazis"
    My comment was "Shostakovich was contemporaneous with Stalin; Wagner wasn't contemporaneous with the Nazis".

    My comment was a little joke at the expense of those who posit some influence of Wagner over Hitler/the Nazis (you know, pretty much everyone who started or joined this thread with the 'Wagner inspired Hitler' style of posts!) It is the lack of contemporaneity between Wagner and Hitler that makes any talk of influence or inspiration problematic.

    The "joke" I suppose being that whilst it would be trivial to postulate some interaction and consequent brush-tarring for Shostakovich and Stalin, it's precisely the non-contemporaneous nature of the lives of Wagner and Hitler that make that impossible to do in Wagner's case.

    I never suggested my comment "impacted the point being argued between you and En Passant", whatever that point happened to be. It was simply meant as a gently humourous reminder of why this Wagner thread exists at all. IE, had Wagner and Hitler been contemporaries, we wouldn't have spent 38 pages and counting discussing the issue!

  15. #566
    Senior Member RogerWaters's Avatar
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    Who really cares about whether Wagner influenced Hitler? It’s not like the man actually physically hurt anyone. All this earnest need to either implicate or extricate Wagner is a bit like watching a subservient religious evangelical self-flagelate. I don’t expect nor desire my great artists to pass the campus safe-space test, along with the soft toys, colouring books and sensitivity readers.
    Last edited by RogerWaters; Sep-28-2020 at 13:21.

  16. #567
    Senior Member JAS's Avatar
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    Maybe Hans Von Bulow, or maybe he did him a favor.

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    MacLeod
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbsolutelyBaching View Post
    Sigh.

    EP said (paraphrasing) "Shostakovich is not tarred with the brush of Stalin as Wagner is of the Nazis"
    You said (ditto) "Shostakovich is so tarred, to some extent, but not as much as Wagner is regarding the Nazis"
    My comment was "Shostakovich was contemporaneous with Stalin; Wagner wasn't contemporaneous with the Nazis".

    My comment was a little joke at the expense of those who posit some influence of Wagner over Hitler/the Nazis (you know, pretty much everyone who started or joined this thread with the 'Wagner inspired Hitler' style of posts!) It is the lack of contemporaneity between Wagner and Hitler that makes any talk of influence or inspiration problematic.

    The "joke" I suppose being that whilst it would be trivial to postulate some interaction and consequent brush-tarring for Shostakovich and Stalin, it's precisely the non-contemporaneous nature of the lives of Wagner and Hitler that make that impossible to do in Wagner's case.

    I never suggested my comment "impacted the point being argued between you and En Passant", whatever that point happened to be. It was simply meant as a gently humourous reminder of why this Wagner thread exists at all. IE, had Wagner and Hitler been contemporaries, we wouldn't have spent 38 pages and counting discussing the issue!
    No need to sigh. Sorry, I just didn't get the joke.

  18. #569
    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacLeod View Post
    No need to sigh. Sorry, I just didn't get the joke.
    No, I realise it wasn't a very good one (which is what I was sighing at).
    Last edited by AbsolutelyBaching; Sep-28-2020 at 16:20.

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    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerWaters View Post
    Who really cares about whether Wagner influenced Hitler? It’s not like the man actually physically hurt anyone. All this earnest need to either implicate or extricate Wagner is a bit like watching a subservient religious evangelical self-flagelate. I don’t expect nor desire my great artists to pass the campus safe-space test, along with the soft toys, colouring books and sensitivity readers.
    Well, I care because it's a claim that's made by many. I mean, to use the lexicon du jour, it's fake news -and I think it's worth calling it out. YMMV, of course.

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