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Thread: Okay, like the mod said, let's continue our discussion about Wagner and nazis...

  1. #106
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    ^^^^You stuck your head in the sand and patted your own back simultaneously! Well done!

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  3. #107
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    ^^^^You stuck your head in the sand and patted your own back simultaneously! Well done!
    And delivered swipes at two other members. Quite the contortionist.

  4. #108
    Senior Member fluteman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmsbls View Post
    While this thread is in the Politics and Religion in Classical Music sub-forum, posts that are purely religious are inappropriate. We just had a thread closed due to purely religious posts leading to violations of the ToS. This thread concerns Wagner, Hitler, and Nazis. Please do not post purely religious comments and return to Wagner and his music.
    An inherent problem with the topic here is that Wagner was an opera composer in the 19th century, Hitler a despot in the early 20th, and now we are in the 21st. Politics, religion and many other things change substantially as centuries pass. It's hard to discuss all of that as one topic in an intelligent and coherent way.

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  6. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by fluteman View Post
    An inherent problem with the topic here is that Wagner was an opera composer in the 19th century, Hitler a despot in the early 20th, and now we are in the 21st. Politics, religion and many other things change substantially as centuries pass. It's hard to discuss all of that as one topic in an intelligent and coherent way.
    I agree. We certainly allow some leeway in making posts that are essentially religious or political if they appear relevant to the topic. The problem arises when political or religious posts start to spiral away from the topic and get into areas that lead to personal attacks.

  7. #110
    Senior Member TalkingHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    You didn't look at the context of the quotation. Had you done so you'd have seen my response to fluteman's interpretation of something I said (five days ago now):

    "I'm not making quite the distinction you're inferring. Science and technology have gotten us into plenty of trouble, but I think the arrogance that has led to that is the heritage of the human-centered world-view of the Biblical creation story in which the earth was a garden made for man and its nonhuman inhabitants were apparently nothing more than soulless objects with merely utilitarian value. It's only rather recently that science and technology have acquired a deep understanding of the interdependent web of profoundly sentient life of which humans are merely a part, a part without which the whole system functioned perfectly well for millions of years and without which it may do so again if we don't change our ways."

    There is no "message of the cross" that addresses this critical issue.
    Dear Woodduck, just a quick 'thank you' for taking the time and effort to refute all the nonsense that rains down on us on this forum.

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  9. #111
    Senior Member Torkelburger's Avatar
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    1. God loves His non-human animals. Regarding the Garden of Eden, He says, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. (i.e., food).
    That is absurd, as this would include herbs that are potentially deadly to humans if consumed such as hemlock, buckeye pod, nightshade, and oleander.

    In regards to racist themes in Wagner, I think one has to be careful of what I call the “Pollyanna Principle” in art (my own made-up term). There’s this point the 1960 film Pollyanna made that I noticed as a kid that the main character “taught” the church/town/pastor: whatever it is you go looking for in xyz (the Bible, and people realized it also applied to life and other things) you will always find it. And in the case of the movie, she specifically says “if you look for the bad in something, you always find it”, “but why don’t you look for the good?” (meaning you will always find it too and therefore she changes everyone’s demeanor/outlook in life in the film). Always finding what you intentionally search for is human nature. This is what I later in life realized applied to the arts as well. Whatever it is you go looking for in XYZ, you will always find it. The human brain can always contort and reason anything into finding something to confirm its bias. So if you intentionally go looking for racism in Wagner, you will always find it.

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  11. #112
    Senior Member Bwv 1080's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Yes of course this is alright if you ignore the fact that first, children as they grow up have the free will to make decisions and choices different to their parents. I am sure if we live in the real world we all know of people who have made very different choices of lifestyles from those of their parents. In addition, the home that Hitler grew up in was highly dysfunctional and marred by violence and therefore it is unsurprising that this trait should have come through in his life:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...secondworldwar
    No less violent or dysfunctional than the norm for that time. What 19th century German father did not beat his kids?

  12. #113
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwv 1080 View Post
    No less violent or dysfunctional than the norm for that time. What 19th century German father did not beat his kids?
    Well, Wagner, for one! Cosima was the disciplinarian. He adored his kids, thought they should be free to express themselves, chased them around the house, stood on his head and knocked over the flower arrangements, and probably tested the proper Madame's infinite devotion to her impossible husband.

  13. #114
    Senior Member Bwv 1080's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Well Stalin pulled God out of the equation and up to 100 million people were left dead.
    The actual number is 6-9 million depending if you include the various famines (which the Soviet records established were unintentional results of bad policy, not deliberate genocide). Stalin kept detailed records which were opened to scholars in the 1990s.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess...ber_of_victims

    Hitler killed more and was equally anti-religious FWIW

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  15. #115
    Senior Member Bwv 1080's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Well, Wagner, for one! Cosima was the disciplinarian. He adored his kids, thought they should be free to express themselves, chased them around the house, stood on his head and knocked over the flower arrangements, and probably tested the proper Madame's infinite devotion to her impossible husband.
    Probably would not have made a good Nazi then . Serious point on Hitler though - his childhood was unremarkable by the standards of the time

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  17. #116
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    I think DavidA and others would be fascinated by the life, times, works, and thought of Ernestine Rose, as detailed in Ernestine Rose, The Rabbi's Atheist Daughter, a wonderful book I reviewed in the Book Chat Group. A tireless pioneer in equal rights for all and for the amelioration of terrible conditions in 19th century America and England, Rose rejected the religion of her Orthodox father (plus everybody else's dogma) left Poland, and became a model of dedicated altruism and a fighter for freedom. Read about her....

    https://www.talkclassical.com/groups...87-a-hero.html

  18. #117
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwv 1080 View Post
    No less violent or dysfunctional than the norm for that time. What 19th century German father did not beat his kids?
    I think some historical research will show you that it was considerably more dysfunctional. But believe what you like.

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  20. #118
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwv 1080 View Post
    The actual number is 6-9 million depending if you include the various famines (which the Soviet records established were unintentional results of bad policy, not deliberate genocide). Stalin kept detailed records which were opened to scholars in the 1990s.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess...ber_of_victims

    Hitler killed more and was equally anti-religious FWIW
    Historians estimate up to 100 million. Latest estimate on Mao may be 100 million btw

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  22. #119
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    I think DavidA and others would be fascinated by the life, times, works, and thought of Ernestine Rose, as detailed in Ernestine Rose, The Rabbi's Atheist Daughter, a wonderful book I reviewed in the Book Chat Group. A tireless pioneer in equal rights for all and for the amelioration of terrible conditions in 19th century America and England, Rose rejected the religion of her Orthodox father (plus everybody else's dogma) left Poland, and became a model of dedicated altruism and a fighter for freedom. Read about her....

    https://www.talkclassical.com/groups...87-a-hero.html
    You will also no doubt be fascinated by historian Tom Holland’s latest book Dominion which shows that humanitarian ideals and human rights actually come from 2000 years of Christian influence. But I believe the moderator did say that potshots like yours were now out of order didn’t they? What about Nietzsche and de Sade who both rejected God and reckoned the logical outcome of their abandonment of religion was more like Hitler than was Ms Stone. The fact is we could take pot shots like this at each other ad infinitum but as the moderator has just told us that the thread should be on Hitler, Wagner and the Nazis, why have you put Ms Rose in? Unless you feel her being Jewish somehow ties in with Hitler and Wagner?

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  24. #120
    Junior Member mrdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amfortas View Post
    Wagner was German.
    Germans killed Jews.
    Therefore, Wagner killed Jews.

    There's just no way around it.
    All men can talk
    All men have B*******
    therefore all men talk B*******??????
    what a load of b........

    free speech is not dead...or is it.
    Last edited by mrdoc; Jan-25-2020 at 11:15.

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