^ & ^^
Thx for your constructive reactions to my somewhat destructive remarks:tiphat:
I think however that our different views now become clear.
R Wagner was not original in his views and also not very intellectual. Nonetheless, my view is that Wagner stood for something, he was politically engaged. He tried to shape an ideology, be it not a very original one, which was based on nationalism and monstrous antisemitism. AB thinks there is no Wagner ideology, I think there is.
But then you must say clearly what that ideology is. "Antisemitism and nationalism" isn't enough, for they are two concepts which almost all educated Germans absorbed. So if there's a Wagner ideology, you must say what it's precise nature is.
Secondly, I think you must say how it was propagated. Marx had
Das Kapital; Hitler had
Mein Kampf; what did Wagner have? Because
Jewishness in Music definitely isn't it. It's not a coherent ideology; it's not a call to arms; it's not setting out a grandiose plan or a sweep of history. Don't get me wrong: it's unpleasant in the extreme, but it's not a manifesto for anything (other than to stop paying Meyerbeer quite so much).
So: nature of the ideology, please. And mechanism by which it was propagated.
I think there is a Wagner dynasty with the object to conserve Wagners legacy. This was R Wagners own idea, to make sure he was not forgotten.
Well, every father wants his children to preserve the family name, etc. If you know of anything unusual or sinister about Richard's desire for his name (rather than his art) to continue after his death, let us know what that might be.
Books are written about this troubled dynasty. It is beyond me how AB and OC keep reasoning that the connection between the ideas of Wagner and the loving personal connection between the Wagner dynasty and nazi leader and ideologist A.Hitler should be totally disconnected from Wagner himself, as he was not alive anymore. Is it because they cannot listen to the music anymore if they would accept the obvious?
Slow down a bit, because this is where you get all agitated and reason seems to fly out the door. For starters, what are these "ideas of Wagner"? And what is the connection between those ideas and the "loving personal connection between the Wagner dynasty and Hitler"?
No-one's denying the loving connection between Hitler and the Wagner dynasty. I'm on record pointing out Winifred called Hitler 'Our Holy Adolph' until the day she died, in 1980. And yes, the grandchildren called him 'Uncle Wolf'. So, I'm fine on the Wagner Dynasty <==> Hitler angle. Never denied it, indeed.
But since I
don't accept there is a Wagnerite ideology, coherently explained and deliberatively propagated, what possible "connection" can there be between the dead Richard Wagner and those loving Hitler<==>Wagner Dynasty connections?
It's not because I wouldn't listen to the music any more if I thought Wagner had a hand in creating or supporting Naziism. It's that without the ideology, there's no possible 'bridging connection' between Richard and Adolph.
When Wagner said that Jews should be burned
Citation needed. Seriously: I know of no-where he says such a thing. Please point out where he said it and, preferably, the exact words he used. It is definitely not in
Jewishness in Music
... and about half a century later one of his followers...
To be a follower, you have to have something to follow. Hitler had antisemitism in common with Wagner, but little else. He wasn't a follower of Wagner, but a mad-keen fan.
...starts organizing this, while playing Wagner's music...
Sorry, but citation is definitely required, because there is no outstanding evidence that Wagner's music was played at any of the extermination camps in the 1941-45 period. I've already mentioned this previously: there is documentation to demonstrate that it was played at Dachau concentration camp in the 1933-34 period. That was not a place where anyone was being killed or burned, but was a political re-education camp. I know it became something else later on, but they weren't playing Wagner by then, as far as actual evidence tells us.
...while being lovingly taken care of by the Wagner dynasty, you absolutely cannot defend that Wagner has nothing to do with this, because he was already dead.
But I absolutely can, because few of the clauses I've broken your sentences up into have any relation to actual history. Wagner didn't advocate the burning of Jews; Hitler wasn't a follower; and Wagner's music wasn't played at concentration camps. So apart from all of that, what's your point? I have nothing to defend, because you haven't established any of these elements as historic fact.
If it turns out you
do have a citation for the 'Wagner said to burn Jews' comment, for example: I'll be the first to acknowledge the point and change my thinking accordingly. I will also concede the point if you have a reference to a Holocaust survivor's memoir where Wagner was played. I personally don't know of one, but we are all fallible researchers in our turn and I'm perfectly happy to be enlightened on the matter.
This part of reasoning to me sounds like twist and bend.
I'll politely warn you one more time to not make this a personal thing, please, because I'm sticking to known, testable historical fact. No twisting or bending required.
I get that you don't like the conclusions where my factual approach to this subject takes me. So, rather than accuse people of twisting or bending, how about you simply start at the beginning and explain precisely what Richard Wagner's philosophy or ideology was, and how he codified or set out that philosophy for others to follow.
And I'll make it even easier than that. You mention 'spiritual leaders of any ideology or religion always have something to do with his disciples' actions' -something I would agree with. So, Jesus had the gospels; Mohammed has the Koran; Marx has Das Kapital; Hitler, Mein Kampf. So my simple, genuine request to you is to simply tells me in what document(s) Richard Wagner laid out his 'ideology or religion'. If we nail that detail, everything else should follow, and it's quite possible I've missed one of his essays or other writings somewhere along the line, so you'd be helping me see more clearly if you were able to share that detail.
But until we can agree on what the 'Wagner Religion Texts' are, we can't agree further, because without knowing the source of this religion of which Hitler was such a disciple, I can't logically follow your trail from 1883 to 1933.