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Thread: Okay, like the mod said, let's continue our discussion about Wagner and nazis...

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Default Okay, like the mod said, let's continue our discussion about Wagner and nazis...

    This is the place for it, right? Come on, let's have some posts! I don't wanna get banned again, or end up like Paul Best, the little boy who played too close to the railroad tracks.

    So what's wrong with pointing out that Wagner and Hitler came from the same flawed Germanic social matrix, without having to "prove" it?

    While Wagner didn't literally claim that Germans were superior to all other people, it is apparent that he felt that way on a cultural level. All his art was made within that culture.

    I don't recall Wagner ever having said that some other culture was superior to Germans, do you? Can you provide any quotes, or any concrete evidence of this?
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Jan-14-2020 at 21:12.
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    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Why, yes indeed. Wagner and Hitler, along with every other German, came out of the flawed German cultural matrix.

    No proof of a tautology is needed. If that's all you wanted to say, case closed, right?

    Or did you have something else you wanted to prove without any of those troublesome things called facts?
    Last edited by Woodduck; Jan-14-2020 at 21:14.

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    And that flawed cultural matrix hated jews, to the extent that it eventually tried to physically destroy them, in a little thing called "The Holocaust." That's not a fact, apparently, if it can be denied.

    Long live Henry Ford!
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "If anything is sufficiently complex, it will eventually reveal a layer of profundity."

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe."

    "Art is the forgotten language of the soul."


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    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    I'm feeling a lot better about our discussions down in the Political and Religious Groups....

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    Senior Member amfortas's Avatar
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    Wagner was German.
    Germans killed Jews.
    Therefore, Wagner killed Jews.

    There's just no way around it.
    Alan

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    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Wagner killed Jews.
    Spaniards killed Jews.
    Therefore, Wagner was a Spaniard!!

    Stop the presses!!

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    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amfortas View Post
    Wagner was German.
    Germans killed Jews.
    Therefore, Wagner killed Jews.

    There's just no way around it.
    It's a little-known fact that after the Jewish conductor Hermann Levi conducted the premiere of Parsifal Wagner had him carved up, roasted, and served up with potatoes and sauerkraut at the cast party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amfortas View Post
    Wagner was German.
    Germans killed Jews.
    Therefore, Wagner killed Jews.

    There's just no way around it.
    That actually makes sense since Wagner had such a profound effect on German culture. Then you consider that Hitler had almost the complete support of the German people, so they're certainly responsible... Your conclusion is not as wacky as you wanted it to sound, we all know Wagner would have at the very least expelled them himself if he had the chance.
    Last edited by 1996D; Jan-14-2020 at 21:58.

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    Senior Member amfortas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    That actually makes sense since Wagner had such a profound effect on German culture. Then you consider than Hitler had almost the complete support of the German people, so they're certainly responsible... Your conclusion is not as wacky as you wanted it to sound, we all know Wagner would have at the very least expelled them himself if he had the chance.
    It's a good thing we all know what we all know.
    Alan

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    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    That actually makes sense since Wagner had such a profound effect on German culture. Then you consider than Hitler had almost the complete support of the German people, so they're certainly responsible... Your conclusion is not as wacky as you wanted it to sound, we all know Wagner would have at the very least expelled them himself if he had the chance.
    What "we all know" is that you are persistent in spewing out nonfactual statements, week after week, in thread after thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    What "we all know" is that you are persistent in spewing out nonfactual statements, week after week, in thread after thread.
    Read Wagner's essay on Jews, it's a fact that he wanted them out of Germany, out of his life completely.

    Hitler also had Jewish 'honorary Aryans', the fact that Wagner had a few Jewish friends changes nothing.
    Last edited by 1996D; Jan-14-2020 at 22:03.

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    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    Read Wagner's essay on Jews, it's a fact that he wanted them out of Germany, out of his life completely.
    If he'd wanted them out of his life completely he wouldn't have continued to invite them into his life. He had them conduct his music and even had an affair with one of them.

    I've read his essay on Jews (in the inadequate translation by Ellis, which is the one you've read and which is the only one available). Wagner said a lot of things, some of them, or many of them, contradictory, and contradicted by his own actions.

    So what's your point? And don't give us more unprovable assumptions.
    Last edited by Woodduck; Jan-15-2020 at 01:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    If he'd wanted them out of his life completely he wouldn't have continued to invite them into his life. He had them conduct his music and even had an affair with one of them.

    I've read his essay on Jews (in the inadequate translation by Ellis, which is the one you've read and which is the only one available). Wagner said a lot of things, some of them, or many of them, contradictory, and contradicetd by his own actions.

    So what's your point? And don't give us more unprovable assumptions.
    Honorary Aryan.

    The Nazis were hypocrites, as was Wagner, bending their own views to fit their lifestyles. Guess what happened though?

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    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    Honorary Aryan.

    The Nazis were hypocrites, as was Wagner, bending their own views to fit their lifestyles. Guess what happened though?
    Yah, we all know "what happened."

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    Senior Member amfortas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    The Nazis were hypocrites, as was Wagner, bending their own views to fit their lifestyles. Guess what happened though?
    I'm sorry, I just can't stop . . .

    The Nazis were hypocrites.
    Wagner was a hypocrite.
    Therefore, Wagner was a Nazi.
    Last edited by amfortas; Jan-15-2020 at 05:25.
    Alan

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