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Thread: Sonata form and enlightenment values

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dove View Post
    I would say that modern pop music with its repetitive, cyclical, mostly computerized nature teaches us a lot about modern society...
    There's a huge amount of repetitive music pre C15. And indeed there's a lot of repetitive music in the C19, think of all those strophic songs by Schubert and Carl Loewe.
    Last edited by Mandryka; Jan-21-2020 at 11:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiast View Post
    Perhaps academics need everything to be defined and unambiguous which leads to their being resistant to big ideas that are not backed up with very extensive and rigorous material and even to the creative in general. At least it sometimes seems like that to me for the field I work in. The quizzical look - something they doubtless learn from their peers and perfect with glee - is also a defense against new ideas that could interrupt their thought processes.
    I am committed to an academic approach. I think the quizzical look just is a polite way of telling the speaker that what they're saying needs to be supported and refined and explored more to be convincing.

    Logic leads to truth.
    Last edited by Mandryka; Jan-21-2020 at 10:54.

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    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    How are enlightenment values different from renaissance values?
    Sounds like a big topic, but I'm pressed for time, so I'll just throw this out: democracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    I am committed to an academic approach. I think the quizzical look just is a polite way of telling the speaker that what they're saying needs to be supported and refined and explored more to be convincing.

    Logic leads to truth.
    Exactly the reason we no longer have great philosophers. Even Plato would not have passed today's academia. He would write "for when modes of music change, the fundamental laws of the State always change with them" and they would have asked him to give citation for that. Modern academia kills the humanities with to much emphasis on logic and correctness and to little emphasis about the spirit.
    Last edited by dove; Jan-23-2020 at 10:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    There's a huge amount of repetitive music pre C15. And indeed there's a lot of repetitive music in the C19, think of all those strophic songs by Schubert and Carl Loewe.
    True. Most folk music is also cyclical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Sounds like a big topic, but I'm pressed for time, so I'll just throw this out: democracy.
    I would add science. The belief in experimental science as a tool for the redemption of the human race.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dove View Post
    I would add science. The belief in experimental science as a tool for the redemption of the human race.
    I think that's a mark of the renaissance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dove View Post
    Exactly the reason we no longer have great philosophers. Even Plato would not have passed today's academia. He would write "for when modes of music change, the fundamental laws of the State always change with them" and they would have asked him to give citation for that. Modern academia kills the humanities with to much emphasis on logic and correctness and to little emphasis about the spirit.
    I wouldn't ask Plato for a citation. I'd just ask where the heck he got a cockamamie idea like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dove View Post
    Modern academia kills the humanities with to much emphasis on logic and correctness and to little emphasis about the spirit.
    Spoken like a neo-platonist. I bet you like Heraclitus and Heidegger too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    I wouldn't ask Plato for a citation. I'd just ask where the heck he got a cockamamie idea like that.
    Plato is in good company. "Let me write a nation's songs, and I care not who writes its laws." --Confucius


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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Plato is in good company. "Let me write a nation's songs, and I care not who writes its laws." --Confucius
    Were Plato and Confucius poker buddies, then?

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    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    Something came up quite recently in another discussion on another forum. I said that modernity started around 1500, because for me, the start of the renaissance comes with the rejection of the idea that the universe is meaningfully ordered, the characteristic of the renaissance is the idea that the universe is ultimately contingent correlations, modelable in maths. There was then a big kerfuffle because Du Fay is supposed to be a renaissance composer, and the reasons given were all stylistic -- things like an awareness of a vertical harmonic progression as opposed to thinking of the music as linear musical parts.

    I pointed out that I'm not very musical, but I am a philosopher.

    It seems to me that musical people think in terms of style more than idea.
    Which renaissance thinkers suggested the universe is not meaningfully ordered?

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    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Ideas inspiring artists and thinkers of the renaissance are things like Neo-Platonism, Christianity and a spiked interest in more esoteric systems of thought like qabalah, none of these are compatible with "a rejection of the idea that the universe is meaningfully ordered."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Sounds like a big topic, but I'm pressed for time, so I'll just throw this out: democracy.
    Ahh yes, democracy! When one system of enslavement becomes obsolete, time to bring out another (old one) from the playbook. The age of enlightenment could be termed "shifting population's thinking patterns from right brain imbalance to left brain imbalance."

    Cue some pedant coming out with a link to a scientific paper showing us how 'left brain' and 'right brain' thinking is not how the brain literally works. Well whatever the left brain right brain still is pretty accurate in describing modes of thought.

    Blinded by science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    Ahh yes, democracy! When one system of enslavement becomes obsolete, time to bring out another (old one) from the playbook. The age of enlightenment could be termed "shifting population's thinking patterns from right brain imbalance to left brain imbalance."

    Cue some pedant coming out with a link to a scientific paper showing us how 'left brain' and 'right brain' thinking is not how the brain literally works. Well whatever the left brain right brain still is pretty accurate in describing modes of thought.

    Blinded by science.
    ???

    Are you saying that democracy is a system of enslavement?

    Yes, the age of enlightenment COULD be termed "shifting population's thinking patterns from right brain imbalance to left brain imbalance," if that's what you want to call it. That seems to me an odd way to think about an era in which rigid social structures were breaking up, the ideologies that supported them were refuted, received religious doctrines could be criticized and rejected without reprisal, and science and industry blossomed. The basic ideas of free thought, individual rights and religious tolerance don't seem "left-brained" to me. Democracy is the least prescriptive and orderly form of society.

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