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Thread: Sonata form and enlightenment values

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    Which renaissance thinkers suggested the universe is not meaningfully ordered?
    My thought was that the difference between modern and premodern thought is constituted by the rejection of the idea of meaningful order; IMO the renaissance is modern.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    Ideas inspiring artists and thinkers of the renaissance are things like Neo-Platonism, Christianity and a spiked interest in more esoteric systems of thought like qabalah, none of these are compatible with "a rejection of the idea that the universe is meaningfully ordered."
    I’d appreciate some example of neo platonic and qabalistic influence.

  3. #33
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    ???

    Are you saying that democracy is a system of enslavement?

    Yes, the age of enlightenment COULD be termed "shifting population's thinking patterns from right brain imbalance to left brain imbalance," if that's what you want to call it. That seems to me an odd way to think about an era in which rigid social structures were breaking up, the ideologies that supported them were refuted, received religious doctrines could be criticized and rejected without reprisal, and science and industry blossomed. The basic ideas of free thought, individual rights and religious tolerance don't seem "left-brained" to me. Democracy is the least prescriptive and orderly form of society.
    I don't want to derail the thread so much but I would just like to leave a few questions that you might want to consider. Would you say you have the freedom to live your life the way you want to right now? Does anyone? If someone forced you to work and took 100% of your earnings would that be an example of slavery? What if they only took 50%? Still slavery? How about 10%? Is there any number other than zero you can answer that question with where it becomes not slavery? In my opinion the answer is no.

    Government means to govern the mind. Government is mind control and it is slavery.

    I don't mean to come across as harsh, or disrespectful but if you can look at the country you live in today and honestly say you cannot imagine a system that could be any better than this, than I believe your capacity to imagine is damaged and I think that is an indicator of left-brain imbalance.

  4. #34
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    My thought was that the difference between modern and premodern thought is constituted by the rejection of the idea of meaningful order; IMO the renaissance is modern.
    Really? You can't back this up with one person's views in the renaissance, any document or work of art or anything? I don't know how someone could look at a work by Da Vinci or Michelangelo, or listen to the music of this period and come to the conclusion that it represents a rejection of meaningful order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    I’d appreciate some example of neo platonic and qabalistic influence.
    Yet you do not provide any examples? Look up renaissance in the encyclopedia and it discusses the influence of Neo-Platonism. If you study the history of qabalah and secret societies you will note that there was a spike of interest in the renaissance as some in that period postulated the qabalah proved Jesus Christ was the son of God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    Really? You can't back this up with one person's views in the renaissance, any document or work of art or anything?
    Sure, that's easy. Everything that Galileo did for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    I don't know how someone could look at a work by Da Vinci or Michelangelo, or listen to the music of this period and come to the conclusion that it represents a rejection of meaningful order.


    By meaningful order I mean the idea that the world expresses or embodies the will of God, who filled the world with pattern when he made it. The sort of idea which underlies this refutation by Francesco Sizzi (an astronomer) of Galileo's discovery of the moons of Jupiter

    "There are seven windows given to animals in the domicile of the head: two nostrils, two eyes, two ears, and a mouth...From this and many other similarities in Nature, too tedious to enumerate, we gather that the number of planets must necessarily be seven."

    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    I don't know how someone could look at a work by Da Vinci or Michelangelo, or listen to the music of this period and come to the conclusion that it represents a rejection of meaningful order.
    .

    I am increasingly of the opinion that music is not about idea at all, it's about style. And the great trends in this history of ideas have little importance for the history of music. I have thought less about plastic arts so I won't comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    Look up renaissance in the encyclopedia and it discusses the influence of Neo-Platonism. If you study the history of qabalah and secret societies you will note that there was a spike of interest in the renaissance as some in that period postulated the qabalah proved Jesus Christ was the son of God.
    I'm sure you're right, but that wasn't what you said. You said that these sorts of ideas were

    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    inspiring artists
    I'd like an example of that, please.
    Last edited by Mandryka; Jan-24-2020 at 19:08.

  6. #36
    Senior Member robin4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    I don't want to derail the thread so much but I would just like to leave a few questions that you might want to consider. Would you say you have the freedom to live your life the way you want to right now? Does anyone? If someone forced you to work and took 100% of your earnings would that be an example of slavery? What if they only took 50%? Still slavery? How about 10%? Is there any number other than zero you can answer that question with where it becomes not slavery? In my opinion the answer is no.

    Government means to govern the mind. Government is mind control and it is slavery.

    I don't mean to come across as harsh, or disrespectful but if you can look at the country you live in today and honestly say you cannot imagine a system that could be any better than this, than I believe your capacity to imagine is damaged and I think that is an indicator of left-brain imbalance.
    The purpose of our Federal Government, as found in the Preamble of the Constitution, is to "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity."

  7. #37
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    The thread does refer to enlightment values so perhaps some political ideas may be appropriate, but please keep purely political and purely religious comments out of the thread. I have removed some purely religious posts.

  8. #38
    Senior Member RICK RIEKERT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    I am increasingly of the opinion that music is not about idea at all, it's about style. And the great trends in this history of ideas have little importance for the history of music.
    Mandryka, for a contrary opinion you might want to read Claude Palisca's brilliant Music and Ideas in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries.

    Here's a brief excerpt from chapter one, 'Musical Change and Intellectual History': "Musical change and intellectual history currents in musical practice flow-from time to time-with the tide of intellectual history, but the ways in which people think about music, as distinct from the musical practice of composing and performing, correspond more closely with general intellectual trends. The sixteenth and seventeenth centuries present a special opportunity to study the relationship between music and ideas because it was a time when the general ferment of ideas and thinking about music often ran parallel, strongly affecting as well the practical composition and performance of music. Aspects of this period's culture familiar to historians touched music deeply: humanism, religious reform, secularization, the emergence of vernacular literature, documentary historiography, the rise and decline of neo-Platonism, Aristotelian poetics, the scientific movement, the revival of rhetoric, openness to emotional experience-the list goes on. These intellectual movements and cultural trends will appear over and over again in the following chapters as we trace the many examples of their penetration in musical thought."

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RICK RIEKERT View Post
    Mandryka, for a contrary opinion you might want to read Claude Palisca's brilliant Music and Ideas in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries.

    Here's a brief excerpt from chapter one, 'Musical Change and Intellectual History': "Musical change and intellectual history currents in musical practice flow-from time to time-with the tide of intellectual history, but the ways in which people think about music, as distinct from the musical practice of composing and performing, correspond more closely with general intellectual trends. The sixteenth and seventeenth centuries present a special opportunity to study the relationship between music and ideas because it was a time when the general ferment of ideas and thinking about music often ran parallel, strongly affecting as well the practical composition and performance of music. Aspects of this period's culture familiar to historians touched music deeply: humanism, religious reform, secularization, the emergence of vernacular literature, documentary historiography, the rise and decline of neo-Platonism, Aristotelian poetics, the scientific movement, the revival of rhetoric, openness to emotional experience-the list goes on. These intellectual movements and cultural trends will appear over and over again in the following chapters as we trace the many examples of their penetration in musical thought."
    Sounds interesting, but before I order, tell me this. Does it presume much music theory? My background is not in music.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    I don't want to derail the thread so much but I would just like to leave a few questions that you might want to consider. Would you say you have the freedom to live your life the way you want to right now? Does anyone? If someone forced you to work and took 100% of your earnings would that be an example of slavery? What if they only took 50%? Still slavery? How about 10%? Is there any number other than zero you can answer that question with where it becomes not slavery? In my opinion the answer is no.

    Government means to govern the mind. Government is mind control and it is slavery.

    I don't mean to come across as harsh, or disrespectful but if you can look at the country you live in today and honestly say you cannot imagine a system that could be any better than this, than I believe your capacity to imagine is damaged and I think that is an indicator of left-brain imbalance.
    I don't know what you're getting at with these questions - oblique to the point of being cryptic - so I won't try to take them apart. I don't see how you've responded to my post, even though you quote it. So I guess we'll just drop it...?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    Sounds interesting, but before I order, tell me this. Does it presume much music theory? My background is not in music.
    I can't say it better than David Cohen has: "Engagingly written for non-specialists (and even non-musicians), yet invaluable for the expert, this remarkable book is both the final summation of a lifetime's distinguished scholarship by the acknowledged master in the field and a stimulating, thorough and authoritative introduction to nearly every aspect of a lively and complex cultural and intellectual milieu of great historical significance: the musical world of the Renaissance and early Baroque, when the rediscovery of classical antiquity helped transmute the medieval into the modern. A profoundly generous legacy by a master scholar and teacher."

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  13. #42
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    Ordered.

    ;cmjsalkcnhsz,kmc bszm,k bc

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  15. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmsbls View Post
    The thread does refer to enlightment values so perhaps some political ideas may be appropriate, but please keep purely political and purely religious comments out of the thread. I have removed some purely religious posts.
    Very sensible of you.

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