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Thread: Striated and Smooth Space.

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    We hope that music can speak for itself. To think of it as "backing up" gibberish such as we find in post #10 is to turn reality downside-up and back-arsewards.
    You call this gibberish: "At its simplest, smooth space time is occupied without counting, offering nonmetric multiplicities and 'directional' spaces not dimensional ones. The difference can be seen in terms of a break between the regular and undetermined and the standardized."

    Yet in other threads, in your over-the top ebullience about Wagner, we catch you expounding modernist ideas, even mentioning Morton Feldman by name, and using terms like 'atemporality.'

    "(Parsifal) gestures back to Bach and beyond to Renaissance polyphony in search of a "purity" of feeling capable of conveying its moral and spiritual idealism and a sense of existence in a dimension that transcends time and place. The prelude to Act One is an austere structure unlike any other in Wagner: principal musical motifs are set forth slowly, successively and with quiet deliberation, separated by pauses, like the elements of a liturgy, and the effect is very much that of a devotional meditation - anything but "excess." Elsewhere in the opera there is a predominance of slow tempos, quiet dynamic levels, and subtle, restrained orchestration. It's often noted that Parsifal seems to suspend time - to slow it down, giving each event time and space to "breathe" - and to subjectivize it to the extent that we have no idea whether we've spent minutes, hours, or an eternity in its mystical realm. In this effect of suspended time it does seem to achieve something akin to the religious works of the Middle Ages and Renaissance, and has little in common with other works of its century except perhaps with late Beethoven and certain works of Schubert and Bruckner. It might even be felt to adumbrate the meditative music of Feldman and other moderns who embrace an aesthetic of atemporality. As Gurnemanz says to Parsifal, "You see, my son, here time becomes space."

    The lesson of manure should be heeded by composers wishing to be heard. Manure is the end product of one process devoid of cerebral self-indulgence, and with the help of rain and earthworms it becomes the beginning of another.
    I think we've uncovered the irrational side of the professed rationalist Woodduck; the fixation on this ideation about Wagner, manure, earthworms, and suspended time.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Mar-11-2020 at 14:15.

  2. #17
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    You call this gibberish: "At its simplest, smooth space time is occupied without counting, offering nonmetric multiplicities and 'directional' spaces not dimensional ones. The difference can be seen in terms of a break between the regular and undetermined and the standardized."

    Yet in other threads, in your over-the top ebullience about Wagner, we catch you expounding modernist ideas, even mentioning Morton Feldman by name, and using terms like 'atemporality.'

    "(Parsifal) gestures back to Bach and beyond to Renaissance polyphony in search of a "purity" of feeling capable of conveying its moral and spiritual idealism and a sense of existence in a dimension that transcends time and place. The prelude to Act One is an austere structure unlike any other in Wagner: principal musical motifs are set forth slowly, successively and with quiet deliberation, separated by pauses, like the elements of a liturgy, and the effect is very much that of a devotional meditation - anything but "excess." Elsewhere in the opera there is a predominance of slow tempos, quiet dynamic levels, and subtle, restrained orchestration. It's often noted that Parsifal seems to suspend time - to slow it down, giving each event time and space to "breathe" - and to subjectivize it to the extent that we have no idea whether we've spent minutes, hours, or an eternity in its mystical realm. In this effect of suspended time it does seem to achieve something akin to the religious works of the Middle Ages and Renaissance, and has little in common with other works of its century except perhaps with late Beethoven and certain works of Schubert and Bruckner. It might even be felt to adumbrate the meditative music of Feldman and other moderns who embrace an aesthetic of atemporality. As Gurnemanz says to Parsifal, "You see, my son, here time becomes space."



    I think we've uncovered the irrational side of the professed rationalist Woodduck; the fixation on this ideation about Wagner, manure, earthworms, and suspended time.
    Do you really think people here are stupid enough to confuse anything I said, or anything I would say, with the jargonistic monstrosity which is post #10? And can it be - can it possibly be? - that you yourself are insufficiently perceptive to tell the difference between metaphoric imagery and pompous postmodern codswallop?

    Don't make me tear apart that Boulezian bloviation and leave it lying in a bloody pulp in the ditch where it belongs. And don't try to attack me and my writing on this forum in any manner whatever, if you know what's good for you. I've handled far tougher intellectual opponents than you can ever dream of being.
    Last edited by Woodduck; Mar-12-2020 at 01:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Do you really think people here are stupid enough to confuse anything I said, or anything I would say, with the jargonistic monstrosity which is post #10? And can it be - can it possibly be? - that you yourself are insufficiently perceptive to tell the difference between metaphoric imagery and pompous postmodern codswallop?
    Don't make me tear apart that Boulezian bloviation and leave it lying in a bloody pulp in the ditch where it belongs. And don't try to attack me and my writing on this forum in any manner whatever, if you know what's good for you. I've handled far tougher intellectual opponents than you can ever dream of being.
    It's just argumentation, since it seems that's what you want to do. Actually, I found your Parsifal descriptions entertaining. I can react to your posts in more positive ways, but this is determined by your reactions, and how you want to play. I see argumentation as a form of play, until it degenerates into personal dimensions.

    To the contrary, I see our exchanges as "compost" for further exploration of ideas about music, philosophy, etc., and your description of Wagner does sound like you've been influenced by "modern conceptions of musical time" that are used in dealing with Feldman, Cage, minimalism, etc.

    The "bloody" imagery you just posted sounds like it was influenced by opera. Tell us sometime about these intellectual opponents you've handled. Does this sort of conflict occur in academic environments? It sounds fascinating.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Mar-12-2020 at 13:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    It's just argumentation, since it seems that's what you want to do. Actually, I found your Parsifal descriptions entertaining. I can react to your posts in more positive ways, but this is determined by your reactions, and how you want to play. I see argumentation as a form of play, until it degenerates into personal dimensions.

    To the contrary, I see our exchanges as "compost" for further exploration of ideas about music, philosophy, etc., and your description of Wagner does sound like you've been influenced by "modern conceptions of musical time" that are used in dealing with Feldman, Cage, minimalism, etc.

    The "bloody" imagery you just posted sounds like it was influenced by opera. Tell us sometime about these intellectual opponents you've handled. Does this sort of conflict occur in academic environments? It sounds fascinating.
    What makes you think I want to argue? In my estimation, that description of Boulez's music is Modernist bombast and not worth arguing about. You're the one trying to turn this into an argument. What a bore.

    I'm even less interested in your little "gotcha" games than in spurious "arguments." In one week you've tried to lay two traps, dredging up my thoughts on Parsifal in contexts unrelated to them (first in relation to Mahler, now to this), solely for the purpose of finding some imaginary inconsistency in my thinking. Since there isn't any, your efforts have come to naught.

    As for "personalization," you are the crassest and most incorrigible "personalizer" on this entire forum. I don't know how to get you to stop characterizing me and others with various labels, though I've pointed out how objectionable it is numerous times. This instance is a perfect and typical case: I made a witty remark about a self-confessed "unreadable" postmodern writer, and you reacted by hauling out one of your favorite epithets for me, "There's the ultimate rationalist." You then offered as a "rebuttal" a perfect specimen of the sort of unreadable analysis art critics of the sixties were fond of using to prove their intellectual sophistication, secure academic chairs, and flatter the pretensions of wealthy patrons. My failure to be impressed by such stuff seemed to push you over the edge; witty ripostes were no longer equal to the task of putting me in my place, wherever that may be, and so you had to resort to the game of "gotcha" and hope that quoting my words on other subjects would catch me in a fatal faux pas.

    It didn't. There's nothing to discuss here, unless perhaps you'd like to describe the music of Boulez in plain English. That doesn't sound like a very entertaining project - surely it's better just to listen to the stuff? - but it would be an improvement on the contents of this thread so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    What makes you think I want to argue? In my estimation, that description of Boulez's music is Modernist bombast and not worth arguing about. You're the one trying to turn this into an argument. What a bore.
    I'm simply responding to harsh interpretations such as "modernist bombast" which invites rebuttal, esp. when applied to specific composers (Boulez).

    I'm even less interested in your little "gotcha" games than in spurious "arguments." In one week you've tried to lay two traps, dredging up my thoughts on Parsifal in contexts unrelated to them (first in relation to Mahler, now to this), solely for the purpose of finding some imaginary inconsistency in my thinking. Since there isn't any, your efforts have come to naught.
    I still maintain that Mahler was treated unfairly elsewhere, on the same religious issues for which Wagner was praised.

    As for "personalization," you are the crassest and most incorrigible "personalizer" on this entire forum. I don't know how to get you to stop characterizing me and others with various labels, though I've pointed out how objectionable it is numerous times. This instance is a perfect and typical case: I made a witty remark about a self-confessed "unreadable" postmodern writer, and you reacted by hauling out one of your favorite epithets for me, "There's the ultimate rationalist."
    "The ultimate rationalist" is hardly a harsh label; and it applies to the non-rationalist French writers we were discussing. Even Mandryka said that they were difficult to read because of "Oxford" rational education. Don't forget, you called me 'misguided' recently.

    You then offered as a "rebuttal" a perfect specimen of the sort of unreadable analysis art critics of the sixties were fond of using to prove their intellectual sophistication, secure academic chairs, and flatter the pretensions of wealthy patrons. My failure to be impressed by such stuff seemed to push you over the edge; witty ripostes were no longer equal to the task of putting me in my place, wherever that may be, and so you had to resort to the game of "gotcha" and hope that quoting my words on other subjects would catch me in a fatal faux pas. It didn't.
    There's nothing to discuss here, unless perhaps you'd like to describe the music of Boulez in plain English. That doesn't sound like a very entertaining project - surely it's better just to listen to the stuff? - but it would be an improvement on the contents of this thread so far.
    If there is nothing to discuss, then entry into this thread would obviously be to create argumentation.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Mar-13-2020 at 19:51.

  8. #21
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    The thread concerns Boulez's comments (and possibly other philosophical ideas) about space and presumably music. Please refrain from personal comments and focus on the thread content.

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    If one has Density , Dynamics and Duration as the structural fundamentals ... this would be of smooth space ? 3d : ha ha .

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    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by Woodduck; Mar-14-2020 at 23:02.

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    Ah ... striated space .

    At home here are specifically defined elements of Pitch , Harmony and Meter . Alone in the universe it
    is the Machine . It welcomes smooth space , for life . The pure music of smooth space , however , does
    not require striated space . Yet , nothing unfriendly need be going on .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tikoo Tuba View Post
    Ah ... striated space .

    At home here are specifically defined elements of Pitch , Harmony and Meter . Alone in the universe it
    is the Machine . It welcomes smooth space , for life . The pure music of smooth space , however , does
    not require striated space . Yet , nothing unfriendly need be going on .
    Yess...smooth space is not evil, it is simply the absence of striated space...it is dark matter, we know it is there...but be not afraid...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tikoo Tuba View Post
    If one has Density , Dynamics and Duration as the structural fundamentals ... this would be of smooth space ? 3d : ha ha .
    Yes, but be sure you know how to move the stuff around. I would advise using gloves, with both hands. If it gets too dense, you can add a little water.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Mar-18-2020 at 13:01.

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    I think a smooth space reference is simply paper with no lines (striations) , no printed musical staff markings .

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    Nothing so refreshing amid all the hackneyed comments on Mozart as a thread in which no one knows what the topic is.

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  21. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Nothing so refreshing amid all the hackneyed comments on Mozart as a thread in which no one knows what the topic is.
    I know . There's nothing you can do about it . I particularly know about people from Ashland , Oregon .
    Never mind . I won't tell a soul .

  22. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tikoo Tuba View Post
    I know . There's nothing you can do about it . I particularly know about people from Ashland , Oregon .
    Never mind . I won't tell a soul .
    Oh, at least tell me. I find them incomprehensible.

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