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Thread: Do keys matter?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    So, you finally admit that you know very well what I've been getting at all along.So who is wasting who's time?
    I said that I know things you claim I don't know. That doesn't mean I always know what you're trying to say. That's where decrypting becomes necessary.

  2. #17
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    I said that I know things you claim I don't know. That doesn't mean I always know what you're trying to say. That's where decrypting becomes necessary.
    I don't think so. When you said "You see, bubbula, I know very well the things you think I don't know," you were referring very specifically to the subject in context. I see it as a tacit admission of that.

    What you are saying above is a generality.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I don't think so. When you said "You see, bubbula, I know very well the things you think I don't know," you were referring very specifically to the subject in context. I see it as a tacit admission of that.

    What you are saying above is a generality.
    There is nothing to "admit," tacitly or otherwise. You make statements, and if you use language that's vague, misleading or nonsensical, people respond accordingly. It's decryption, and it's pretty routine around here.

  4. #19
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    There is nothing to "admit," tacitly or otherwise. You make statements, and if you use language that's vague, misleading or nonsensical, people respond accordingly. It's decryption, and it's pretty routine around here.
    What's "routine" is your way of derailing threads and obfuscation, i.e. the concept of concealing the meaning of a communication by making it more confusing and harder to interpret. The intent to obscure information: that's your goal.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Mar-31-2020 at 22:52.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    ^^^Obscurity doesn't need obscuring. You talk as if I'm the only one here who thinks you offer more words than sense. Try offering clear and accurate information, then see whether people try to "obscure" it.

    It's amusing that you portray yourself as a source of "information" rather than of views. Not surprising, just amusing. As my Aunt Helen used to say, "Pin a rose on you!"
    Last edited by Woodduck; Apr-01-2020 at 00:16.

  6. #21
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    ^^^Obscurity doesn't need obscuring. You talk as if I'm the only one here who thinks you offer more words than sense. Try offering clear and accurate information, then see whether people try to "obscure" it.
    Ideas like exposing the diatonic nature and bias of the CP notation system? That seems obscure to you because you've never really thought about it. You just continued to play your piano. For you, it's not about information, anyway, which you demonstrate as follows:

    It's amusing that you portray yourself as a source of "information" rather than of views. Not surprising, just amusing. As my Aunt Helen used to say, "Pin a rose on you!"
    I shudder to think what else your Aunt Helen used to do to you.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Ideas like exposing the diatonic nature and bias of the CP notation system? That seems obscure to you because you've never really thought about it. You just continued to play your piano. For you, it's not about information, anyway, which you demonstrate as follows:



    I shudder to think what else your Aunt Helen used to do to you.
    Music utilizing the CP notation system can be as diatonic or as chromatic as anyone chooses to make it. There is no "bias" you need to "expose." A staff with a separate line or space for every one of the 12 chromatic notes wouldn't be "unbiased," it would merely be unwieldy. The layout of black and white piano keys isn't "biased," it makes possible the identification of every key by its distinct visual pattern. Your claim that composers are "biased" toward "diatonic thinking" by the piano is ludicrous.

  8. #23
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Music utilizing the CP notation system can be as diatonic or as chromatic as anyone chooses to make it.
    Yes, but Alan Holdsworth is glad that Nicolas Slonimsky wrote his Thesaurus of Scales without key signatures. That would have made it extremely unwieldy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    There is no "bias" you need to "expose."
    I was being dramatic, like you.I think people need to know these things, especially guitarists.
    A staff with a separate line or space for every one of the 12 chromatic notes wouldn't be "unbiased," it would merely be unwieldy.
    I never proposed doing that.
    The layout of black and white piano keys isn't "biased," it makes possible the identification of every key by its distinct visual pattern.
    I was being dramatic. the layout of the keyboard does reflect the diatonic scales because it is a diatonic instrument by nature. Don't you know that? I guess you can't see it because you never thought about it. The guitar, by contrast, is a chromatic instrument.
    Your claim that composers are "biased" toward "diatonic thinking" by the piano is ludicrous.
    I didn't say that. I said the CP system is designed for diatonic music. The word "biased" is a little dramatic, don't you think? It's ludicrous!


    "The communal language of music that all musicians share - that is, the language of scales, theory, and intervals that we all use when explaining or communicating music - really has nothing to do with any instrument other than the piano.” -Pat Martino

    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-01-2020 at 08:49.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Kopachris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I was being dramatic. the layout of the keyboard does reflect the diatonic scales because it is a diatonic instrument by nature. Don't you know that? I guess you can't see it because you never thought about it. The guitar, by contrast, is a chromatic instrument.
    Uh uh uh. We're not comparing guitar to the whole of keyboard instruments. We're comparing guitar to piano, which is by nature a chromatic instrument. The earliest keyboard instruments were diatonic, but the original plucked string instruments were pentatonic, so you have no point there.

  10. #25
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopachris View Post
    Uh uh uh. We're not comparing guitar to the whole of keyboard instruments. We're comparing guitar to piano, which is by nature a chromatic instrument. The earliest keyboard instruments were diatonic, but the original plucked string instruments were pentatonic, so you have no point there.
    Uh uh uh...yessss!

    The black and white keys of the piano reflect diatonic key signatures. Is this rocket science? One black key and six white keys is the key of G (one sharp). Can you wrap your head around that?
    I'm planning to go into more detail on this later, if I can find some keyboard pattern images. The image-posting capabilities are pretty limited here.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-02-2020 at 14:20.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Kopachris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Uh uh uh...yessss!

    The black and white keys of the piano reflect diatonic key signatures. Is this rocket science? One black key and six white keys is the key of G (one sharp). Can you wrap your head around that?
    I'm planning to go into more detail on this later, if I can find some keyboard pattern images. The image-posting capabilities are pretty limited here.
    Sure, the keyboard layout was designed to be accessible for diatonic music in any and every key signature, i.e. in a chromatic fashion. It's a chromatic instrument.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post

    The black and white keys of the piano reflect diatonic key signatures. Is this rocket science? One black key and six white keys is the key of G (one sharp). Can you wrap your head around that?
    Sure, the piano's pattern of black and white keys does correspond to key signatures. The disagreement seems to be over calling key signatures diatonic and, based on that, calling the piano diatonic. Pentatonic instruments contain only the notes of the common pentatonic scale. A diatonic instrument would contain only the notes of a diatonic scale. A chromatic instrument would contain all the notes of the chromatic scale. The piano does.

    The patterning of the piano keyboard doesn't limit us to diatonicism in any way. All it does, in practice, is to distinguish keys visually by pattern, so that we can easily see what key we're in. What other pattern would make sense? What would a "chromatic keyboard," in your thinking, look like? Maybe one that uses a different color for each of the 12 pitch classes, eliminating the concept of "key" from visual representation? Do you think that would be more useful?
    Last edited by Woodduck; Apr-02-2020 at 21:22.

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  14. #28
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopachris View Post
    Sure, the keyboard layout was designed to be accessible for diatonic music in any and every key signature, i.e. in a chromatic fashion. It's a chromatic instrument.
    What a reply! "All the key signatures means the piano is chromatic? No, you're not seeing it.

  15. #29
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Sure, the piano's pattern of black and white keys does correspond to key signatures. The disagreement seems to be over calling key signatures diatonic and, based on that, calling the piano diatonic.
    Admittedly, in modern thinking, key signatures can be used differently, as a 'workaround', but it was never my assertion that they could not. I simply said that they were designed for the diatonic system, as was the layout of the keyboard itself.

    Admittedly, in modern practice, the piano be used and written for chromatically, but it was never my assertion that it could not.

    But it is my assertion that, especially in this context of comparison to the guitar, the piano is a diatonic instrument, and the guitar is a chromatic instrument. This can be shown in many ways.
    Pentatonic instruments contain only the notes of the common pentatonic scale. A diatonic instrument would contain only the notes of a diatonic scale. A chromatic instrument would contain all the notes of the chromatic scale. The piano does.
    Where did you get this from? I never said that, or proposed that, and you are way off-base as to an understanding of what I'm saying.

    The patterning of the piano keyboard doesn't limit us to diatonicism in any way.
    True, and I never said it did. The patterns do reflect that it is a basically diatonically-designed instrument by nature. The guitar is not.

    All it does, in practice, is to distinguish keys visually by pattern, so that we can easily see what key we're in. What other pattern would make sense? What would a "chromatic keyboard," in your thinking, look like?
    I never proposed a "chromatic" keyboard. I'm fine with the piano the way it is.

    Maybe one that uses a different color for each of the 12 pitch classes, eliminating the concept of "key" from visual representation? Do you think that would be more useful?
    I never proposed the elimination of "key" areas. All I said was that the entire "language" of music, all the note names, notational system, are derived from this diatonic key-system-based way of thinking.

  16. #30
    Senior Member Kopachris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    What a reply! "All the key signatures means the piano is chromatic? No, you're not seeing it.
    Explain like I'm 5, then.

    A piano and a guitar can play the same notes. The piano can play more notes in actuality. If anything, the piano is more chromatic than the guitar.
    Last edited by Kopachris; Apr-03-2020 at 17:04.

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