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Thread: Do keys matter?

  1. #31
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopachris View Post
    Explain like I'm 5, then.

    A piano and a guitar can play the same notes. The piano can play more notes in actuality. If anything, the piano is more chromatic than the guitar.
    Well, to explain it, I have to go into detail, but here's an example.

    When a guitarist learns a C major scale, he has to learn several different forms for it. One starts on index/6th string, another on middle finger/6th string, and pinky/6th string, then repeating this on the 5th string, for a total of 6 or 7 different patterns for only one scale. This is his "diatonic disadvantage."

    But the guitar has a "chromatic advantage." Each pattern can move up by one fret, and suddenly he knows C#, D, Eb, E, and so on. This is a "chromatic advantage."

    The piano, by contrast, has only one unique pattern for each major scale; C is all white, C# is all black notes except for one white note, D is two black notes, and so on.

    The pianist's "diatonic advantage" is that there is only one unique form for each scale.

    But, the pianist has to learn a different new pattern as he goes up chromatically. The pattern of black/white notes changes as he goes up chromatically. This is hs "chromatic disadvantage."

    The same principle applies to chord voicings.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-03-2020 at 18:24.

  2. #32
    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    That's just called learning an instrument. Fingering patterns are quite consistent for the piano with a few variations.

  3. Likes Woodduck, Kopachris, TalkingHead liked this post
  4. #33
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    That's just called learning an instrument. Fingering patterns are quite consistent for the piano with a few variations.
    Yeah, it's just mechanics. None of it is of any concern to anyone not playing the piano or the guitar. It has nothing to do with chromaticism or diatonicism, much less with whether "keys matter."

  5. #34
    Senior Member Kopachris's Avatar
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    None of that has anything to do with whether the instrument is considered, by anyone except YOU, diatonic or chromatic. Both instruments are chromatic and that's that.

  6. #35
    Senior Member TalkingHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    That's just called learning an instrument. Fingering patterns are quite consistent for the piano with a few variations.
    Ouf, back to earth again. Thanks Mike.

  7. #36
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    C# is all black notes except for one white note
    you mean two white notes?
    C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    you mean two white notes?
    C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#
    Yes! two white notes. Don't shoot me, piano is not my main instrument.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-03-2020 at 21:24.

  9. #38
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    That's just called learning an instrument. Fingering patterns are quite consistent for the piano with a few variations.
    Yes, this explanation is specifically applied to the piano as an instrument and understanding its nature in comparison. I've noticed that its harder for pianists to see this.
    I still say this has resonances in all aspects of scales, notation, and the overall CP language.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-03-2020 at 21:26.

  10. #39
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Yeah, it's just mechanics. None of it is of any concern to anyone not playing the piano or the guitar. It has nothing to do with chromaticism or diatonicism, much less with whether "keys matter."
    It's not just mechanics; the instrument reflects diatonic notation as well, which includes the letter-names, lines and spaces, scales, key signatures and the whole language of music that we use to convey ideas to other musicians. It's all diatonic, not chromatic.
    What do you mean by "chromaticism and diatonicism" in the way you are using the terms, and how is it separate from this?
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-03-2020 at 21:35.

  11. #40
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopachris View Post
    None of that has anything to do with whether the instrument is considered, by anyone except YOU, diatonic or chromatic. Both instruments are chromatic and that's that.
    I just explained how it does. Your reply just an insubstantial denial of that. It doesn't hold any water for me on a discussion level. You're just internet squabbling, not discussing.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-03-2020 at 21:33.

  12. #41
    Senior Member Kopachris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I just explained how it does. Your reply just an insubstantial denial of that. It doesn't hold any water for me on a discussion level. You're just internet squabbling, not discussing.
    Fair enough. I don't have time to squabble with you either.

  13. #42
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    It's not just mechanics; the instrument reflects diatonic notation as well, which includes the letter-names, lines and spaces, scales, key signatures and the whole language of music that we use to convey ideas to other musicians. It's all diatonic, not chromatic.
    What do you mean by "chromaticism and diatonicism" in the way you are using the terms, and how is it separate from this?
    The letter names of the notes - ABCDEFG - spell out the natural minor scale, which is obviously a diatonic scale. If you prefer a melodic minor scale, you stick some chromatics into it - F# and G#- but you don't put them in the key signature because the parallel major is C and because you tend to use the natural minor scale on the way back down. It seems quite efficient for representing tonal relations clearly and facilitating playing the piano.

    What are we arguing about?

  14. #43
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    The letter names of the notes - ABCDEFG - spell out the natural minor scale, which is obviously a diatonic scale. If you prefer a melodic minor scale, you stick some chromatics into it - F# and G#- but you don't put them in the key signature because the parallel major is C and because you tend to use the natural minor scale on the way back down. It seems quite efficient for representing tonal relations clearly and facilitating playing the piano.

    What are we arguing about?
    OK, if the diatonic system is so efficient, how do you notate other scales outside its scope and purview? 8, 9, 10, &11 note scales?

    Nicolas Slonimsky avoided this, and wrote his Thesaurus of scale without key signatures.

  15. #44
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    OK, if the diatonic system is so efficient, how do you notate other scales outside its scope and purview? 8, 9, 10, &11 note scales?

    Nicolas Slonimsky avoided this, and wrote his Thesaurus of scale without key signatures.
    I don't acknowledge the term "diatonic system." The common practice, major-minor system is both diatonic and chromatic.

    If Slonimsky wants to use other scales and have no key signatures, fine. Perhaps you'll illustrate his procedures for us.

  16. #45
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    I don't acknowledge the term "diatonic system." The common practice, major-minor system is both diatonic and chromatic.
    In a narrow sense you are correct, but in the broader sense you are incorrect.

    The "CP chromatic collection" will still use diatonic principles: one example is that it will "divide" the octave at the fifth, not the tritone. For true chromaticism, the tritone is the true dividing point of the octave (6+6=12).

    The key signatures follow the circle of fifths, proving that the CP system is not really "chromatic" in an important sense. Why?

    There are only two intervals which, when projected (or "stacked") produce the entire chromatic scale before repeating: the fifth (and its other-direction inversion, the fourth) and the minor second.

    Thus, the CP system is built on progressions of fifths/fourths, not chromatics.

    Postulate 1: The interval-distance of a fifth is 7 semitones; a fourth is 5 semitones.

    Postulate 2: 12 (the chromatic collection within an octave) is divisible by 7 only when we reach 7x12=84. Similarly, 5x12=60. Both 84 and 60 lie well-outside the bounds of 12; they are the result of outward travel "outside" the octave.

    Postulate 3: The minor second interval distance is 1, and 1x12=12. this interval stays "within" the octave, is recursive within an octave.

    Postulate 4: Therefore, CP's "chromatic" nature is arrived at via the fifth/fourth, and is thus not "truly" chromatic as a "real" chromatic minor second is.

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