View Poll Results: Who is your favorite of the big 3 composers?

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  • Bach

    54 32.93%
  • Mozart

    37 22.56%
  • Beethoven

    73 44.51%
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Thread: Favorite of the Big Three (poll)

  1. #301
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
    Whom do we choose to be the one who will pronounce authoritatively on the merits of a score?
    I would rely on a person who has studied music for many years and performed for many years. They can look at a score and tell that it's from the young Mozart or mature Mozart or JC Bach or that upstart, LvB. They might not 'like' a work, they might not agree but they can evaluate it objectively. It's no different than in the other arts or sports or chess or dog shows..
    Albert Einstein, "I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music.

  2. #302
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    Each individual? A 10-year-old? rebellious teenager? a young adult? an octogenarian composer/conductor?
    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    I would rely on a person who has studied music for many years and performed for many years.
    Unlike many of us here, Yuhki Kuramoto is an experienced (69-year old) composer and musician who achieved great success in public, attained millions of fans worldwide. That doesn't mean we have to take his personal bias toward Chopin seriously or follow his philosophies or values in music.




    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Apr-07-2020 at 22:17.

  3. #303
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    Unlike many of us here, Yuhki Kuramoto is an experienced (69-year old) composer and musician who achieved great success in public, attained millions of fans worldwide. That doesn't mean we have to take his personal bias toward Chopin seriously or follow his philosophies or values in music.




    Email him. See what he says about Chopin's output.
    Albert Einstein, "I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music.

  4. #304
    Senior Member Room2201974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    I would rely on a person who has studied music for many years and performed for many years. They can look at a score and tell that it's from the young Mozart or mature Mozart or JC Bach or that upstart, LvB. They might not 'like' a work, they might not agree but they can evaluate it objectively. It's no different than in the other arts or sports or chess or dog shows..
    So this is interesting. You say they can evaluate it objectively? Ok! What objective standards are they using for that evaluation????
    I wrote a song about dental floss. Did anyone's teeth get cleaner? ~ Frank Zappa

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  6. #305
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Room2201974 View Post
    So this is interesting. You say they can evaluate it objectively? Ok! What objective standards are they using for that evaluation????
    Sounds like identifying flavors of ice cream. Even I can tell pistachio from Cherry Garcia.

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  8. #306
    Senior Member Room2201974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    Sounds like identifying flavors of ice cream. Even I can tell pistachio from Cherry Garcia.
    Why of course Strange! And the fughatos in Beethoven's Diabelli Variations are greater than the fughatos in Brahms' Ein Deutsches Requiem. Everyone who can read a score can see that. Why, it's obvious!
    I wrote a song about dental floss. Did anyone's teeth get cleaner? ~ Frank Zappa

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  10. #307
    Senior Member Ethereality's Avatar
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    I enjoy all 3, though starting to come around more to Bach.
    Last edited by Ethereality; Apr-08-2020 at 07:06.

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  12. #308
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Strange Magic
    Sounds like identifying flavors of ice cream. Even I can tell pistachio from Cherry Garcia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Room2201974 View Post
    Why of course Strange! And the fughatos in Beethoven's Diabelli Variations are greater than the fughatos in Brahms' Ein Deutsches Requiem. Everyone who can read a score can see that. Why, it's obvious!
    It's equally obvious that this song

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKDtUzRIG6I

    is as great an artistic achievement as this one

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlWubQL1iao

    Everyone who understands ice cream can see that.
    Last edited by Woodduck; Apr-08-2020 at 07:29.

  13. #309
    Senior Member Room2201974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    It's equally obvious that this song

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKDtUzRIG6I

    is as great an artistic achievement as this one

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlWubQL1iao

    Everyone who understands ice cream can see that.
    Well, no Woodduck, its not obvious at all. I mean, one would need a score to show the obvious objective differences. Just like the obvious objective differences between Beethoven fughatos and Brahms fughatos clearly show to everyone concerned that Beethoven's are the greater. All you need to do is consult the score!

    Now if you had provided the scores to the linked music we could have plugged the values from Dr. J. Evers Pritchard, Ph.D. into the Strange Magic Greatness Meter® to determine which song has the greater artistic achievement. However, I have it on the best authority that some of the 2.7 million views for the fish head song were from people who regularly vote in TC composer polls so our greatness results might be different than popularity polls may suggest.
    I wrote a song about dental floss. Did anyone's teeth get cleaner? ~ Frank Zappa

  14. #310
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    They all mastered their art, but I object to the idea of a "big three". I mean there's also the "Three Bs" - originally Bach, Beethoven, Berlioz (then Brahms)... History gifted us many geniuses - Palestrina, Wagner, Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, etc. - why place blinkers on your musical outlook?

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  16. #311
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    It's equally obvious that this song

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKDtUzRIG6I

    is as great an artistic achievement as this one

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlWubQL1iao

    Everyone who understands ice cream can see that.
    All I can say in response is that the idea that all esthetics is both subjective and personal is very difficult for some people to come to terms with. Every cell in many people's bodies screams out that this human construct of Art (music, the arts) somehow objectively mirrors--or ought to mirror--some Platonic set of forms and sounds and shapes hanging somewhere in the noösphere surrounding Earth and the other planets and celestial bodies. But it just is not so. All we can say is that some prefer A to B; others, the reverse. After the preference has been acknowledged, there is then the ex post facto scramble to establish the proper rationale for why we prefer A to B. or the reverse. This process usually ends up as a vote or poll of either a general or a specialist population, the results of which then are disputed.

    Shakespeare had it right.

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  18. #312
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    It's equally obvious that this song

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKDtUzRIG6I

    is as great an artistic achievement as this one

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlWubQL1iao

    Everyone who understands ice cream can see that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    All I can say in response is that the idea that all esthetics is both subjective and personal is very difficult for some people to come to terms with. Every cell in many people's bodies screams out that this human construct of Art (music, the arts) somehow objectively mirrors--or ought to mirror--some Platonic set of forms and sounds and shapes hanging somewhere in the noösphere surrounding Earth and the other planets and celestial bodies. But it just is not so. All we can say is that some prefer A to B; others, the reverse. After the preference has been acknowledged, there is then the ex post facto scramble to establish the proper rationale for why we prefer A to B. or the reverse. This process usually ends up as a vote or poll of either a general or a specialist population, the results of which then are disputed.

    Shakespeare had it right.
    I think there is more we can say in why we prefer A to B, prior to making the judgement. In Woodduck's example, I think it became more hazy when he used 'artistic achievement' instead of 'music'. Obviously the Lazy Afternoon is greater music, and you don't need a score to figure that out, it's pretty obviously from a technical, objective standpoint. But which is a greater artistic achievement is more ambiguous. The Fish Heads was better as comedy, satire. The Lazy Afternoon was better as dreamy, ethereal music. I can say I found both corny, some could disagree with me, but there is no doubt the Lazy Afternoon has better music.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

  19. #313
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    I think there is more we can say in why we prefer A to B, prior to making the judgement. In Woodduck's example, I think it became more hazy when he used 'artistic achievement' instead of 'music'. Obviously the Lazy Afternoon is greater music, and you don't need a score to figure that out, it's pretty obviously from a technical, objective standpoint. But which is a greater artistic achievement is more ambiguous. The Fish Heads was better as comedy, satire. The Lazy Afternoon was better as dreamy, ethereal music. I can say I found both corny, some could disagree with me, but there is no doubt the Lazy Afternoon has better music.
    As I say, some people have trouble.... We have talk of "pretty obvious from a technical, objective [sic] standpoint" and "no doubt the Lazy Afternoon has better music", and, if we put it to a vote of TC members, most would agree--I certainly would say I prefer Lazy Afternoon to Fish Heads. But That's Just Me (and You): that's the whole point, yet it is difficult to relinquish the idea that we serve or embody nobler, more "objective" impulses.
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Apr-08-2020 at 14:36.

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  21. #314
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    It's interesting that Beethoven's fifth is 'generally' considered a masterful work (and I agree)...and yet this view is held:

    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    There's no doubt that the first movement of the 5th Symphony would gain by deletion of the infinitely many repeats of the main theme. Or motif. Or whatever the heck it is.

    While the resulting movement would be somewhat...uh...short, I'm sure it would gain in force!
    On occasion I have even thought along similar lines myself - but it still remains one of my favourite symphonies. Clearly, the difficulty for the 'objective' arbiter who is to judge the greatness of music works is laid bare.
    Last edited by janxharris; Apr-08-2020 at 15:42.

  22. #315
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Some people are put off by my offering selecting among flavors of ice cream as an admittedly crude analogy to the question of what's Good/Bad/Great/Not Great in the Arts. Let us then rise many levels above the crude, plebeian subject of ice cream flavors--what's Good, what's Popular--and turn instead to the rarified atmosphere of the tasting and grading of fine wines: Oenophilia...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oenophilia

    I'm sure there are experienced, knowledgeable oenophiles in the TC membership who can comment upon the similarities and the differences between their enthusiasm and the subject of musical appreciation. Is the judging of whether a wine is "great" an analysis of a wine's "objective" qualities? My view, which should surprise no one, is that the esthetics of musical (and other artistic) activities is essentially a variant of the esthetics of tasting wines, and just as personal and subjective.

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