View Poll Results: Who is your favorite of the big 3 composers?

Voters
164. You may not vote on this poll
  • Bach

    54 32.93%
  • Mozart

    37 22.56%
  • Beethoven

    73 44.51%
Page 25 of 44 FirstFirst ... 1521222324252627282935 ... LastLast
Results 361 to 375 of 651

Thread: Favorite of the Big Three (poll)

  1. #361
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    2,266
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    With his background in music theory I believe that he could have easily imitated the styles of Salieri and Mozart if he wanted to, but that he instead chose to try a new path and develop his own style.
    Beethoven has relatively few vocal works when compared to Mozart and Bach, but it's my opinion that the best of them are very great music. After all, it should be noted that it's due one of his vocal works, a cantata, that Haydn decided to welcome the young Ludwig as his pupil.
    I find that in choral music, Mozart is closer to Michael Haydn, and Beethoven is closer to Joseph Haydn in general impression. Beethoven actually studied Joseph Haydn's late masses (right before composing his own Op.86) and called them "inimitable masterpieces".
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Apr-10-2020 at 03:16.

  2. Likes Allerius liked this post
  3. #362
    Senior Member BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    930
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    I'm not sure how this fits into the thread. Oh wait. I have it!:

    Schubert was too smart not to realize that if he was ever going to compete with the "big three," he was going to need some serious work on counterpoint. It's admirable that he realized this and was willing to do the work, even after he had produced a body of great music that insured his immortality.
    Yes; surely if Schubert was a man of any dignity his primary concern must have been for his future reputation on TC, specifically how he might measure up against the Big 3. Personal artistic development and affinities were, at most, a secondary concern.
    Casual composer, pianist, music enthusiast

  4. #363
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,590
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    I'm not sure how this fits into the thread. Oh wait. I have it!:

    Schubert was too smart not to realize that if he was ever going to compete with the "big three," he was going to need some serious work on counterpoint. It's admirable that he realized this and was willing to do the work, even after he had produced a body of great music that insured his immortality.
    Our young hammeredklavier poster has implied that Schubert was second rate because he sought out counterpoint lessons.
    Albert Einstein, "I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music.

  5. #364
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    2,266
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    Our young hammeredklavier poster has implied that Schubert was second rate because he sought out counterpoint lessons.
    Well, the fact remains that Schubert sought lessons (probably not just on counterpoint) til the end of his life, because he knew his own deficiencies that held him back from being a fully stand-alone professional. Have I committed some sort of sacrilege by stating the fact? Based on everything I've said, I don't personally think he's the greatest composer who ever lived. What does my age have to do with anything being discussed here? I haven't seen anyone else on this forum having this much obsession with age, like seriously. =)
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Apr-10-2020 at 05:37.

  6. #365
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,946
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    Consider a situation where there are 20 flavors of ice cream, all of them selling reasonably well, a very few better than the others for reasons no one seems to have determined. Ice-cream expert pundits opine that preference for the various flavors are purely subjective and thus, greatness of one flavor over the other has little meaning.

    Then a small upstart company by the name of Ludwig’s seemingly out of nowhere releases a new flavor that starts to gain interest over virtually all the other flavors. Time goes by and over a period of years, Ludwig’s ice cream only gets better and better. Somehow it has attained a superiority in attracting more people routinely than the other competitors due to what the pundits continue to say are subjective tastes.

    Finally, some of the other companies have had it. They hire a detective to go undercover, infiltrate Ludwig’s and discover the secret of its success. After a few years, the detective has established himself as an employee in the research department and has befriended the person most responsible for the success of Ludwig’s ice-cream.

    One evening after a few drinks, the detective finally gets the chief researcher to open up about the Ludwig’s success. The researcher says:

    ‘In our earlier years, we educated ourselves about the elements in our competitors ice cream that people liked. We found that a powerful flavor all at once attracted people initially but wore out its welcome over time. On the other hand, if flavor was too subtle, people lost interest. Ludwig’s ice cream starts off with what seems like subtle flavor, but as one experiences it there will be moments of powerful flavor when one least expects it.

    But we don’t stop there. Every once in a while using a proprietary method, our customers will notice an almost off-flavor that suddenly surprises, but just when it seems that it will overwhelm the wonderful experience that preceded it, special Ludwig’s flavor pearls explode with a burst of flavor that resolves the off-flavor resulting in an unexpected pleasurable experience.’

    Finally, the detective asks what his clients most want to know: ‘Many people say that Ludwig’s ice cream is the greatest, while others dismiss the greatness as being simply a subjective judgment on the part of people who like it.’. The researcher answers, ‘Through our education, our evaluation of what people have already been attracted to in the past, our own intuition, our own innovation and, apparently, as a result of extensive research, our successful appeal to the subjectivity of peoples’ tastes, we have successfully created an ice cream that more people like over others.

    No matter how much the pundits want to perseverate on the subjectivity of our clients’ tastes, we have objective evidence behind the success of our ice cream due to reasons mentioned just above. Furthermore, there is objective evidence that we appeal to subjective tastes of various cultures all over the world and have for many years. This is the result of our objective skills. Skills that others apparently don’t have at the level we do. Perhaps if other ice cream makers looked more objectively at the reasons behind the subjective tastes of their customers, they would be more objectively successful and more objectively great.’
    Nothing here that proves that Ludwig's is objectively superior to other successful purveyors (Wolfie's, Dimitri's, Jean's and Richard's to name just a few). Of course one has to produce a quality product in the first place - one that will attract enough customers (and Ludwig's is to be commended for this of course), but taste is important - genetic disposition, accustomed diet and other factors will be significant.

    If it was all about the objective superiority then why do some lover's of Wolfie's hate the taste of Ludwig's? Is the consumer of Dimitri's having an inferior ice-cream experience compared to that had by the consumer of Ludwig's?
    Last edited by janxharris; Apr-10-2020 at 09:07.

  7. #366
    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Location
    Nottingham, UK
    Posts
    929
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    Beethoven has relatively few vocal works when compared to Mozart and Bach, but it's my opinion that the best of them are very great music
    I don't disagree with your opinion at all.

    If I gave the impression that I disliked the 9th after my sight-reading experience, that's my mistake: I love it, very much. I would just prefer hearing someone else singing it than having another go at it myself!

    The degree of difficulty his vocal writing exhibits isn't however, in my view, a strength. I think it's a genuine technical failing. He simply didn't write for the (tenor) voice comfortably, because I don't think he understood how it worked very well. That doesn't make his choral works less powerful in overall effect, or indeed, poorer musically, but it is something a singer definitely experiences, I think.

    In fact, an equivalent argument can be made about Bach: he was also unkind to voices, since he seemed to forget they need to breathe now and again But that's a minor detail(!), because in every other respect, he wrote music that is musically complex but is a lot easier on the vocal cords.

  8. Likes Allerius, Caesura liked this post
  9. #367
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    5,000
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist View Post
    Yes; surely if Schubert was a man of any dignity his primary concern must have been for his future reputation on TC, specifically how he might measure up against the Big 3. Personal artistic development and affinities were, at most, a secondary concern.
    He was increasingly influenced by Beethoven in the 1820s. The comparison was part of his personal artistic development.

    What greater comfort does time afford than the objects of terror re-encountered and their fraudulence exposed in the flash of reason?
    — William Gaddis, The Recognitions

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
    Basil Valentine

  10. #368
    Senior Member Allerius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    2,450
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dizwell View Post
    The degree of difficulty his vocal writing exhibits isn't however, in my view, a strength. I think it's a genuine technical failing. He simply didn't write for the (tenor) voice comfortably, because I don't think he understood how it worked very well. That doesn't make his choral works less powerful in overall effect, or indeed, poorer musically, but it is something a singer definitely experiences, I think.
    I see from where you're coming, as I've seem singers complaining about Beethoven's last vocal works before. I disagree with you and them.

    Late Beethoven is very technically demanding not only for voices, but overall. The first movement of the Ninth, the Hammerklavier sonata (particularly the last movement), the Diabelli variations, the Große Fuge etc. are very difficult to play, especially if the performer will take into consideration Beethoven's metronome marks. But expert pianists, violinists, violists etc. don't complain about the difficulty of these works - rather, they seem to take it as a personal challenge, and view it positively. If elsewhere difficulty can be appreciated, from the works of Paganini and Ernst to those of Liszt and Rautavaara, then why vocal music in particular should be easy? Beethoven was almost completely deaf by the time when he composed his Missa Solemnis and his last complete symphony (I believe that it was in his Thayer biography that I've read that in his last years he was completely deaf in his right ear and that only if someone talked loudly next to his left ear that he could still listen a bit to what was being said), and it must have taken an immense effort to him to compose these two magistral pieces; consider this, I don't see why then they should be effortless to play.
    “To do good whenever one can, to love liberty above all else, never to deny the truth, even though it be before the throne.” - Ludwig van Beethoven.

  11. Likes DBLee, Caesura liked this post
  12. #369
    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Location
    Nottingham, UK
    Posts
    929
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    I see from where you're coming, as I've seem singers complaining about Beethoven's last vocal works before. I disagree with you and them.

    Late Beethoven is very technically demanding not only for voices, but overall. The first movement of the Ninth, the Hammerklavier sonata (particularly the last movement), the Diabelli variations, the Große Fuge etc. are very difficult to play, especially if the performer will take into consideration Beethoven's metronome marks. But expert pianists, violinists, violists etc. don't complain about the difficulty of these works - rather, they seem to take it as a personal challenge, and view it positively. If elsewhere difficulty can be appreciated, from the works of Paganini and Ernst to those of Liszt and Rautavaara, then why vocal music in particular should be easy? Beethoven was almost completely deaf by the time when he composed his Missa Solemnis and his last complete symphony (I believe that it was in his Thayer biography that I've read that in his last years he was completely deaf in his right ear and that only if someone talked loudly next to his left ear that he could still listen a bit to what was being said), and it must have taken an immense effort to him to compose these two magistral pieces; consider this, I don't see why then they should be effortless to play.
    I agree with you: Why should his choral music be easy to sing? No reason at all. But if you write tenor parts with a tessitura that takes a Domingo to pull off, then you're setting up your basic choral tenors to conk out just when you need them to sound out loudly against a full orchestral passage (for example). If you write lots of awkward interval jumps, then your singers will be concentrating more on getting them right than, say, getting the expressiveness of a passage correct. And if you write long, sustained notes in the higher reaches of the upper register and expect a singer to diminuendo to pp on it, you're pushing your luck, basically.

    It's fine to make technical demands on your choirs. But if you make fundamentally impossible or unreasonable demands, then your music will be performed with approximation and workarounds, rather than as your 'inner ear' wanted them to be performed.
    Last edited by AbsolutelyBaching; Apr-10-2020 at 16:50.

  13. Likes Rex1, Caesura liked this post
  14. #370
    Senior Member DaveM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    So. California, USA
    Posts
    3,139
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
    Nothing here that proves that Ludwig's is objectively superior to other successful purveyors (Wolfie's, Dimitri's, Jean's and Richard's to name just a few). Of course one has to produce a quality product in the first place - one that will attract enough customers (and Ludwig's is to be commended for this of course), but taste is important - genetic disposition, accustomed diet and other factors will be significant.
    You start off with an alleged statement of fact and then continue with the reason why it is wrong. Ludwig’s produced a quality product that has attracted customers from all over the world for centuries. Is that not a great accomplishment? Is that not the reason that Ludwig’s is one of the greatest if not (arguably) the greatest? Was not the skill of Ludwig’s ice cream experts greater than all or most of its competitors?

    If it was all about the objective superiority then why do some lover's of Wolfie's hate the taste of Ludwig's? Is the consumer of Dimitri's having an inferior ice-cream experience compared to that had by the consumer of Ludwig's?
    A mere handful of other ice-cream makers came close, some would say equaled, if not surpassed, Ludwig’s ice cream. In any event, people generally agree that Ludwig’s ice-cream is one of the greatest which is different than saying it is perfect. Ludwig’s has always recognized the subjective component of its customers’ taste and has apparently exploited it better than most of its competitors all over the world. Those who fixate on the element of subjectivity over that accomplishment are missing the point.

  15. #371
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Nova Caesarea
    Posts
    5,195
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    A mere handful of other ice-cream makers came close, some would say equaled, if not surpassed, Ludwig’s ice cream. In any event, people generally agree that Ludwig’s ice-cream is one of the greatest which is different than saying it is perfect. Ludwig’s has always recognized the subjective component of its customers’ taste and has apparently exploited it better than most of its competitors all over the world. Those who fixate on the element of subjectivity over that accomplishment are missing the point.
    The fixators, such as myself, fixate only because of the near-universality of the erroneous notion that there is something "objectively", Platonically inherent within LVB's music (or anybody else's music) that makes it measurably,"objectively" (they mean "obviously") better, Greater, whatever-er, than some other music. The point actually is that many, many people, especially lovers of CM--including me--think very highly of, prefer, enjoy, select, vote for, the music of LVB or (your personal favorite here). Still a subjective choice, experience, but one that is shared.
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Apr-10-2020 at 18:02.

  16. #372
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ashland, OR
    Posts
    16,440
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    The musicians of the world - the composers, the performers, even the teachers, scholars and critics whose musical talent and skills may not suffice for careers in music-making - devote their lives to making their music better, to showing others how to make better music, and to recognizing when and how musical excellence has been achieved.

    The claim that all these people are not doing what they think they're doing, but merely expressing and confirming their tastes, is about as credible and noteworthy as a six-times bankrupted con artist's claim that he alone can make America great again. Neither claim is subject to "objective" proof or disproof - after all, who decides when America is great again? - but people with an appropriate amount of relevant experience and perception don't find the matter debatable or, generally, worth debating. The first violinist and cellist of a string quartet may differ as to whether Beethoven's Op. 127 or Op. 130 is the better work, but the question of whether Beethoven's quartets are better than Cherubini's is never - absolutely never - going to come up.

    The epistemology of accountants and statisticians is of little relevance in matters of art or love.

  17. #373
    Senior Member DaveM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    So. California, USA
    Posts
    3,139
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    The fixators, such as myself, fixate only because of the near-universality of the erroneous notion that there is something "objectively", Platonically inherent within LVB's music (or anybody else's music) that makes it measurably,"objectively" (they mean "obviously") better, Greater, whatever-er, than some other music. The point actually is that many, many people, especially lovers of CM--including me--think very highly of, prefer, enjoy, select, vote for, the music of LVB or (your personal favorite here). Still a subjective choice, experience, but one that is shared.
    Nothing in appreciation of the superiority of some artists over others in the great arts is as simple as the subjectivity of the target audience. As classical music developed, there were certain parameters that became what attracted people, earlier on, counterpoint, later melody and ‘hooks’ closely related to melody and then sophistication of orchestration using all the instruments in ways not seen before.

    The great composers were not only the ones that created music using these parameters better than others, but were the ones that introduced music that was ahead of its time, in a sense, anticipating future subjective tastes before listeners even knew they had them. This is perhaps a primary example of objective proof of the superiority of a composer at the level of Beethoven over many others. His music was not only resonating with listeners in the moment, but was creating music that was not immediately accepted, but which was developing an entirely new paradigm.

    The appreciation of the reasons why some composers of classical music are objectively greater than others because they have perfected the parameters that have already been determined by subjective tastes requires something beyond the superficial repetition of ‘it’s all subjectivity, case closed’.

  18. #374
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Nova Caesarea
    Posts
    5,195
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I sense that the realization of the subjectivity of esthetics continues to elude many here. DaveM totters on the edge of acknowledgement with his idea of the "objectively greater than others because they have perfected the parameters that have already been determined by subjective tastes" formulation. The "some composers of classical music" whom he asserts are "objectively greater" are so, insomuch as they have indeed acquired majorities of certain select audiences who consider them "great". No one disputes this---it is measurable, once the audience is selected, identified, and the "votes" counted. Truth by a show of the proper hands--OK by me. Vanilla is preferred over butter pecan (unless the audience is comprised of butter pecan lovers), and I will assert that fact with vigor, and will hold it to be an objective fact/truth.
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Apr-10-2020 at 21:21.

  19. #375
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,590
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    The musicians of the world - the composers, the performers, even the teachers, scholars and critics whose musical talent and skills may not suffice for careers in music-making - devote their lives to making their music better, to showing others how to make better music, and to recognizing when and how musical excellence has been achieved.

    The claim that all these people are not doing what they think they're doing, but merely expressing and confirming their tastes, is about as credible and noteworthy as a six-times bankrupted con artist's claim that he alone can make America great again. Neither claim is subject to "objective" proof or disproof - after all, who decides when America is great again? - but people with an appropriate amount of relevant experience and perception don't find the matter debatable or, generally, worth debating. The first violinist and cellist of a string quartet may differ as to whether Beethoven's Op. 127 or Op. 130 is the better work, but the question of whether Beethoven's quartets are better than Cherubini's is never - absolutely never - going to come up.

    The epistemology of accountants and statisticians is of little relevance in matters of art or love.
    Very good points.
    If few people liked, "preferred", enjoyed, the achievements of Beethoven would that convey something reliable? Would his scores be less valuable? I want to ask SM why, but not repeat myself too much..
    Albert Einstein, "I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •