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Starben or Stürben?

2K views 26 replies 6 participants last post by  superhorn 
#1 ·
OK, random question.
I've listened to samples of the Act II duet of Tristan und Isolde from many recordings. I've noticed that whatever tenor is playing Tristan either says, "So starben wir" or "So stürben wir", whereas the singer playing Isolde always seems to say "So stürben wir". Why is this line not consistently sung among different Tristans? Which one is correct - starben or stürben?
 
#2 ·
As far as I know, no one has the answer to this puzzle. "Sterben" is the German verb meaning "to die." Starben" is past tense, "stürben" is conditional, and the discrepancy is found in the published score. The debate is over whether it's a mistake or whether Tristan's use of the past tense indicates that he already sees himself as having passed on to the next world, while Isolde is more of a realist.
 
#5 ·
Well, I don't know. I would think it should be "starben" if that's what the score says, but in all of these recordings, the singer for Tristan says "stürben" or maybe even "sterben", but definitely not "starben":

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The one that surprised me the most was the Solti recording. You'd think if it is supposed to be "starben" that Solti would have corrected it considering how much of a perfectionist he was. Of course, Brangäne doesn't scream at the end of the duet like she's supposed to in the Solti recording. I thought I read that Solti was disappointed in his Tristan und Isolde recording. So maybe he was sloppy or something.

Strangely, the libretto that came with my Karajan CD says "stürben" for Tristan, but Vickers actually does say "starben". So, I don't know. I'm very confused.
 
#6 ·
Could it not be that those Tristan's who sing 'starben' as 'stürben' are just incredibly posh? (This joke possibly only works if you are British!)

Adriesba, it seems that "starben" is in the published score, but some think that both should sing "stürben" and so some tenors and CD libretti correct what they perceive as a mistake.

Was Wagner's original manuscript lost in WWII (and therefore we can't check what Wagner actually wrote)?

N.
 
#12 ·
Adriesba, it seems that "starben" is in the published score, but some think that both should sing "stürben" and so some tenors and CD libretti correct what they perceive as a mistake.

N.
Tristen sings starben too many times for it to have been a careless error. Can't understand singers and conductors who think that they know better than the composer!!
 
#7 ·
My reading over the years tells me that the difference between Tristan's and Isolde's choices of verb tense has long been a puzzle, suggesting that it dates back to the original published score. We need to know what's in the manuscript. You can apparently get a deluxe facsimile of it for less than a thousand dollars, if it's still available.

https://www.omifacsimiles.com/brochures/wagner_tristan.html
 
#9 ·
Sometimes Solti's opera recordings have information on how the recording was made. Perhaps if I bought it I could read it and understand why their Tristan doesn't say "starben" or why Brangäne doesn't scream at the end of the duet. Of course, if I buy another Tristan und Isolde recording, I'd rather buy the classic Böhm recording.
 
#14 ·
I’m using the Eulenburg miniature score and I can’t find Tristan using anything other than starben, sturb’ and sturbe. Also I thought I’d edited my previous post to say that curiously I can’t find any use of sturben in modern German. It appears that modern usage is sterben.
 
#15 ·
I'm using the Eulenburg miniature score and I can't find Tristan using anything other than starben, sturb' and sturbe. Also I thought I'd edited my previous post to say that curiously I can't find any use of sturben in modern German. It appears that modern usage is sterben.
Wait, there are scores where he says something other than "starben"?
 
#16 ·
This is getting a little crazy. Tristan sings "So starben wir um ungetrennt," it's in the published score, and that's that. Some people find this baffling since the lovers haven't died, and think it logical to change this to "So stürben wir" to match what Isolde sings. The mystery will probably never be solved. I for one plan not to lose sleep over it.
 
#18 · (Edited)
I'm not sleeping well anyway so I'm game to continue playing this little game of nineteenth century German semantics.:lol:

Wait til I get started on the curious relationship between Mahler's First symphony, Rossini's William Tell and the piping tune, The Barren Rocks of Aden!;)

That will, of course, be on another thread.
 
#24 · (Edited)
I am making a change to my post #18. My thread will be on Mahler’s 1st, Rossini and the piping tune, Green Hills of Tyrol. Not Barren Rocks of Aden. :confused:

Clearly the lockdown is playing merry hell with my memory.
 
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