Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 31

Thread: Does Gregorian chant have a "tonality?"

  1. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    15,970
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    Interestingly, there are 8 meanings/senses of the word tonality.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonality

    Whichever turns your crank.
    For the purpose of this discussion, these two definitions are best:

    5. Referential tonic
    In a general way, tonality can refer to a wide variety of musical phenomena (harmonies, cadential formulae, harmonic progressions, melodic gestures, formal categories) as arranged or understood in relation to a referential tonic.

    7. Synonym for "key"
    The word tonality has more recently been used by amateur musicians and in popular music as a synonym for "key"—in this sense meaning "keyness"[/h]This is the most common usage, referring to the arrangement of musical phenomena around a referential tonic, as found in European music from about 1600 to about 1910, using two modal genera, major and minor

    P.S. For all you geniuses out there, It has nothing to do with whether A=435 or A=440.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-16-2020 at 19:49.

  2. #17
    Senior Member isorhythm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    For the purpose of this discussion, these two definitions are best:

    5. Referential tonic
    In a general way, tonality can refer to a wide variety of musical phenomena (harmonies, cadential formulae, harmonic progressions, melodic gestures, formal categories) as arranged or understood in relation to a referential tonic.

    7. Synonym for "key"
    The word tonality has more recently been used by amateur musicians and in popular music as a synonym for "key"—in this sense meaning "keyness"[/h]This is the most common usage, referring to the arrangement of musical phenomena around a referential tonic, as found in European music from about 1600 to about 1910, using two modal genera, major and minor

    P.S. For all you geniuses out there, It has nothing to do with whether A=435 or A=440.
    I would say Gregorian chant fits under 5, minus the harmonic component.

  3. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    15,970
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by isorhythm View Post
    I would say Gregorian chant fits under 5, minus the harmonic component.
    Okay, agreed.
    What are we on now, page two?
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-16-2020 at 20:29.

  4. #19
    Senior Member isorhythm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Okay, agreed.
    What are we on now, page two?
    I think it's a more interesting question than just yes/no, that's why I wrote the longer post above. But if you disagree no need to belabor it.

  5. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    15,970
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by isorhythm View Post
    I think it's a more interesting question than just yes/no, that's why I wrote the longer post above. But if you disagree no need to belabor it.
    It just seems like people are more concerned with definitions than they are with actually discussing the question, which I think they all understand enough "play along."

  6. #21
    Senior Member isorhythm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    It just seems like people are more concerned with definitions than they are with actually discussing the question, which I think they all understand enough "play along."
    That's because the question you've posed depends on definitions. Once we agree on a definition the answer is trivial.

  7. Likes EdwardBast liked this post
  8. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    15,970
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by isorhythm View Post
    That's because the question you've posed depends on definitions. Once we agree on a definition the answer is trivial.
    Not to me. I'm more interested in subjective reactions than I am on definitions.

  9. #23
    Junior Member anahit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Tbilisi
    Posts
    43
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    So when you hear it, you don't hear it as tone-centric in any way? I always thought it sounded rather drone-y.
    Modality can also have a tone center. One or more centers (example: plagal modes).

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    Interestingly, there are 8 meanings/senses of the word tonality.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonality
    Never consult Wikipedia for anything serious.
    Last edited by anahit; Apr-17-2020 at 08:01.
    მუსიკა გადაარჩენს მსოფლიოს.

  10. #24
    Senior Member isorhythm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,656
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Not to me. I'm more interested in subjective reactions than I am on definitions.
    OK, let's talk about subjective reactions. I gave my take in my long post on the first page. What did you think? Was my take wrong? What's your take?

  11. #25
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    15,970
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by isorhythm View Post
    OK, let's talk about subjective reactions. I gave my take in my long post on the first page. What did you think? Was my take wrong? What's your take?
    I think you're right. The tonality is often ambiguous in chant, and that's why I find it interesting.

    Some of it has been added to, so it's interesting to see how someone turns it into harmonic music.

    The Resurrexi (Easter Sunday, Introit) sounds minor.

    The Hodie Christus Natus Est (Christmas, Antiphon, Female voices) starts out sounding major, but ends up sounding minor. I also noticed one note, in only one instance, that sounded Lydian or b5-ish.

    I recognize the Sequentia: Dies Irae from "The Shining." It sounds Dorian.

    The Introitus: Laetare Ierusalem is ambiguous; it seems to vacillate between the I major and iii minor, as you said, F and Am. I do hear that Lydian b5 creeping in on occasion, and it sounds out of place here.

    I think we are hearing things the same.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-17-2020 at 15:17.

  12. #26
    Junior Member visionquest1972's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    13
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    So I am just going to reply to this without reading the other replies (don't worry, I will). My gut tells me that there was tonality in Gregorian Chant. I say this because I think that we naturally know which tones are "pleasing" to the ear. But to be technical, I don't think that the chants have tonality because tonality hadn't been defined yet.

  13. #27
    Senior Member Flamme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Change. Eternal.
    Posts
    2,337
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Are they wearing underwear under those robes?
    I dunno but...
    A traveler stopped at a monastery and they invited him to stay for a delicious dinner of fish and chips.
    After dinner he went in the kitchen and asked a guy "Are you the fish friar?" and the guy said "No I'm the chip monk."
    'Listen, Mister god!
    Isn't it boring
    to dip your puffy eyes,
    every day, into a jelly of clouds?'

  14. Likes isorhythm liked this post
  15. #28
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    15,970
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anahit View Post
    Modality can also have a tone center. One or more centers (example: plagal modes).


    Never consult Wikipedia for anything serious.
    I think WIK is a great source of accurate info. I see you have been pro-active in offering your superior alternatives.

  16. #29
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    15,970
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by visionquest1972 View Post
    So I am just going to reply to this without reading the other replies (don't worry, I will). My gut tells me that there was tonality in Gregorian Chant. I say this because I think that we naturally know which tones are "pleasing" to the ear. But to be technical, I don't think that the chants have tonality because tonality hadn't been defined yet.
    Then the tonality of it is "art" or whatever. Still, I think there is some "tonality" going on in a lot of it, although it hasn't been defined, because I think it's a natural human propensity to hear, or search for, tonality. I think definitions are often irrelevant and can actually get in the way of whatever it is you're trying to achieve.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-18-2020 at 18:39.

  17. #30
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    5,365
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Then the tonality of it is "art" or whatever. Still, I think there is some "tonality" going on in a lot of it, although it hasn't been defined, because I think it's a natural human propensity to hear, or search for, tonality. I think definitions are often irrelevant and can actually get in the way of whatever it is you're trying to achieve.
    Definitions do tend to get in the way if ones intention is to sow confusion and avoid meaningful discourse.

    Your frogs make me shudder with intolerable loathing and I shall be miserable for the rest of my life remembering them.
    — Mikhail Bulgakov, The Fatal Eggs

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
    — Basil Valentine

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •