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Thread: Explain fascination with Furtwängler

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    Attachment 136172

    For any doubters give this album a try, it's free on spotify.

    Not a fan of the slight mic noise, but Furtwangler's so good he makes it work, and Deutsche Grammophon sure know how to remaster.

    He has such sensitivity, slows down, great pianissimo, great rubato, yet picks up the tempo when he has to avoid dullness and boredom. Great sense of symmetry, never makes mistakes.

    Top 5 all time no doubt.
    Yes. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heck148 View Post
    NOT INTERESTED
    I've made my points....you tried to support a flawed premise with non-credible sources, got called on it....you trashed your own argument.
    your assertion that Furtwangler's is the only true path, and all others are inferior, or invalid, mere "time-beaters" is nonsense, and the musical world does not support your flawed premise. It is your opinion only...
    Well, not really. I think that "self-contained" opinions which try to disengage art from its context are narcissistically flawed. If an "organic" approach to conducting is "Germanic," or "Wagnerian," then that connection is inescapable. At least it is a historically-derived opinion with literary back-up (Wagner's writing on conducting).

    I think it's disingenuous to try to dis-associate Western classical music from Germanic culture. Like it or not, these are its roots.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    Now tell me why you keep...
    NOT INTERESTED....Go enjoy your Furtwangler, it doesn't threaten me in the least....The fact that I won't acknowledge WF as the ultimate interpeter of German music seems to cause you all manner of discomfiture...it shouldn't...

  4. #154
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    Here is the original set-up for this thread. Haven't we been on a jouney?

    "I have long been wondering what it is about Wilhelm Furtwängler that so many people continue to find his performances to be so much better than most of what has come since. Yes I can understand that he was one of the top conductors of the first half of the 20th century but that doesn't explain why he is seen as THE interpretive icon. Perhaps some can offer insights into the matter."

    What I've taken from it is that some people think he interprets the music well, and some disagree. This largely seems to relate to how much he varies the tempo. A few others are interested in politics in Germany in the 1930s and 40s.

    Is that a fair summary?

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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Yes, but at least Brahmsianhorn has some incidental "back-up context" to his argument. Since Wagner, Bruckner, and Beethoven were all German, this gives the Wagnerian school of conducting some creedence.
    sure, for a period of time, it was the accepted style. but the issue was always this - with a Beethoven symphony - are we hearing Beethoven?? or are we hearing Furtwangler/Wagner, putting their extra-musical stamp on the proceedings??....hence the reaction.
    Heck148's assertions are based on a totally self-contained narcissistic perception
    nonsense - it's based upon the literalist approach inititated by such as Toscanini and Weingartner, in reaction to the Wagnerian school, which, indisputably, became accepted in the 20th century. It had very talented and powerful disciples - Reiner, Szell, Solti, Monteux, Dorati, etc...My preferences are based upon extensive exposure and experience in both schools...for me, the literalist approach is preferable, it's more in line with my own training and experience...if somebody else prefers the Wagnerian school, fine...to each his own.

  6. #156
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    I don't know why it is difficult for anyone to recognize Furtwangler's role in the history of recorded music. He was to Toscanini in the prewar and postwar years what Bernstein became to Karajan in the 1950s through their deaths in 1989 and 1990: the most recognized conductors of mainstream classical music in the world. And like the two giants that followed them they built huge followings of people that still listen to and sometimes swear by their interpretations. And their recording keep being reissued by companies that specialize in improving historic recordings.

    I don't think that means they are the only conductors anyone listens to, nor do I believe it means they are necessarily the best. What they have that many others do not, however, is staying power. Their interpretive ways stay steady with a lot people -- both longtime listeners and people new to their art -- over decades. This to me is why they are special.

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  8. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heck148 View Post
    NOT INTERESTED....Go enjoy your Furtwangler, it doesn't threaten me in the least....The fact that I won't acknowledge WF as the ultimate interpeter of German music seems to cause you all manner of discomfiture...it shouldn't...
    It is you who cannot handle difference of opinion and feel threatened by it. If I state that in my opinion WF is superior to Toscanini, and your response is to accuse me of claiming that my truth is the only truth and all the other nonsense you have spewed personally attacking me, that is proof right there that you CANNOT handle an opinion differing from your own. How can you not see this? It is clear as day in your responses.

    Would you make the same accusations if I said that Toscanini was superior to Furtwangler? Of course not.

    There is a phrase for this: cognitive dissonance. "It cannot be that Toscanini is inferior to Furtwangler. Therefore I must find a deficiency in the person claiming this in order to invalidate his statement."

    Just like being on a playground. Or in an Eastman dorm room laughing with friends.

  9. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    At least it is a historically-derived opinion with literary back-up (Wagner's writing on conducting).
    So what?? Weingartner wrote a book on conducting as well, and he was a leading proponent of going back to the score.
    The Wagnerian, ultra-Romantic aproach is certainly valid, and it was certainly the pre-dominant style for a long time...but it was replaced by a newer approach, which is equally valid, and which still prevails at present...but both are arguably intermediate, transient modes, which may well arrive at a newer approach in the future.
    I think it's disingenuous to try to dis-associate Western classical music from Germanic culture. Like it or not, these are its roots.
    Its roots are what Beethoven put in the score....the 19th century Romanticism is not the last word on musical intepretation.

  10. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by larold View Post
    I don't know why it is difficult for anyone to recognize Furtwangler's role in the history of recorded music. He was to Toscanini in the prewar and postwar years what Bernstein became to Karajan in the 1950s through their deaths in 1989 and 1990: the most recognized conductors of mainstream classical music in the world. And like the two giants that followed them they built huge followings of people that still listen to and sometimes swear by their interpretations. And their recording keep being reissued by companies that specialize in improving historic recordings.

    I don't think that means they are the only conductors anyone listens to, nor do I believe it means they are necessarily the best. What they have that many others do not, however, is staying power. Their interpretive ways stay steady with a lot people -- both longtime listeners and people new to their art -- over decades. This to me is why they are special.
    Yes, they were very special in different ways. Toscanini's 1936 7th, 1933 5th, and 1939 3rd are some of my favorite Beethoven recordings. Just because I like Furtwangler better does not mean that I do not appreciate Toscanini. I wish we had more like both of them today!

  11. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heck148 View Post
    the 19th century Romanticism is not the last word on musical intepretation.
    Saw this at the top of my screen and knew immediately it was you. Such statements are so sophomoric. Making a claim that no one has ever made in order to show disdain for something that threatens you.

    Do you consciously distort people's arguments in order to "win?" I almost would feel better if I knew you were aware of it as you are doing it.

  12. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    It is you who cannot handle difference of opini
    NOT INTERESTED....give it up....I've no problem with your personal opinion.

    Would you make the same accusations if I said that Toscanini was superior to Furtwangler?
    If you said that Toscanini's was the only true approach to Beethoven, I'd say you were full of it. like I do now.

  13. #162
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    Phew, I thought the HvK threads could get heated. WF seems to win on that over HvK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    Saw this at the top of my screen and knew immediately it was you.
    It's nice to see that you spend so much time on my behalf!! very flattering!!

  15. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heck148 View Post
    it's based upon the literalist approach inititated by such as Toscanini and Weingartner, in reaction to the Wagnerian school, which, indisputably, became accepted in the 20th century.
    Ah, now we are back to it being objective truth as opposed to subjective opinion.

    Then why is Furtwangler more popular than Toscanini? They were exact contemporaries. Toscanini actually even made more recordings.

  16. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heck148 View Post
    If you said that Toscanini's was the only true approach to Beethoven, I'd say you were full of it. like I do now.
    Quote me where I say Furtangler is the only true approach to Beethoven. Hell, I just praised several Toscanini recordings 5 minutes ago. I have actually shown myself on my time on this forum to be much more open-minded then you have. You are a broken record of Toscanini-Reiner-Solti. But you accuse me of being the one who dismisses all other approaches than the one I like.

    Do you ever get tired of lying and distorting what people say?

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