Page 51 of 116 FirstFirst ... 4147484950515253545561101 ... LastLast
Results 751 to 765 of 1726

Thread: Explain fascination with Furtwängler

  1. #751
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    15,963
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerWaters View Post
    If you want to do what amounts to using cooperative tools (words) for your own grubby personal gain, that is your choice, but you shouldn't expect people to respect you for it. I'm relatively new to being a more regular poster here, and so I wouldn't expect you to care what I think of you, but others who you know better must surely be cringing.
    This is too ad-hominem.

    Are you British, or educated in Britain?
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Jul-03-2020 at 00:18.

  2. #752
    Senior Member Brahmsianhorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,723
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerWaters View Post
    Then why are you calling the pursuit of your arbitrary musical ideal the pursuit of truth? Truth is objective. What is true for one person is automatically true for every single other person. Truth is not relative to individuals. If the representation '2+2=4' is true for one person, it's true for every person. If the representation 'God doesn't exist' is true for one person, it's true for every person, etc.
    I’ll explain it one more time. Imagine there is a tree far away and all of us are asked to estimate the distance. All of us have different ideas, and none of us can prove ourselves empirically correct. But there is a true distance that we are all STRIVING to approximate.

    You never reach the truth in music. You strive for it. How many more times do I to have to explain this only to hear you distort it?
    Last edited by Brahmsianhorn; Jul-03-2020 at 00:18.

  3. #753
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    15,963
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    I’ll explain it one more time...You never reach the truth. You strive for it. How many more times do I to have to explain this only to hear you distort it?
    This is too ad hominem as well.

  4. #754
    Senior Member RogerWaters's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    877
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    I’ll explain it one more time. Imagine there is a tree far away and all of us are asked to estimate the distance. All of us have different ideas, and none of us can prove ourselves empirically correct. But there is a true distance that we are all STRIVING to approximate.

    You never reach the truth in music. You strive for it. How many more times do I to have to explain this only to hear you distort it?
    Your analogy works against you.

    The tree exists - hence it is not unreasonable to say you are, actually, striving for it (as opposed to merely thinking you are striving for it).

    Musical 'perfection' is not a thing which exists - hence it is unreasonable to say you are, actually, striving for this (as opposed to merely thinking you are striving for it)!
    Last edited by RogerWaters; Jul-03-2020 at 00:38.

  5. #755
    Senior Member RogerWaters's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    877
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Are you British, or educated in Britain?
    This is ad-hominem
    Last edited by RogerWaters; Jul-03-2020 at 00:32.

  6. #756
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,945
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BachIsBest View Post
    Who unveiled the essence of Beethoven's fifith more:
    1. Me, humming the duh-duh-duh-duuuuh theme in the shower this morning
    2. Furtwangler in his 1954 live account
    3. Carlos Kleiber in the DG recording
    4.
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Jul-03-2020 at 01:48.

  7. #757
    Senior Member Brahmsianhorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,723
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerWaters View Post
    Musical 'perfection' is not a thing which exists - hence it is unreasonable to say you actually are striving for it (as opposed to merely thinking you are striving for it)!
    I believe musical perfection can never be fully realized. But it exists. How can you strive for something that doesn’t exist?
    Last edited by Brahmsianhorn; Jul-03-2020 at 00:45.

  8. #758
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,945
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerWaters View Post
    Indeed, the preferences of the people who happened to respond to him.
    But you seem to want to say Fartwangler was tapping into something more meaty/objective that mere preferences. Like the following...
    This is so vague as to be virtually meaningless. And what of the people whose neurons are not so titilated by Fartwangler's batton? Do they lack 'the essence that connects us as humans'?! What baloney!
    fart noun
    2. a boring or contemptible person.
    "he was such an old fart"

    A wangler is one who resorts to trickery or devious methods to obtain their goals. One might find himself classified as a wangler if they were to manipulate information to obtain a job.

  9. #759
    Senior Member RogerWaters's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    877
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    How can you strive for something that doesn’t exist? .
    I completely agree! I mean, you can think you are striving for something, when that thing doesn't happen to exist. But you aren't really. You're striving for a mirage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    I believe musical perfection...exists.
    Please give us reasons why you are not striving for a mirage? Why should we all think musical perfection exists? What makes the claim that musical perfection exists true? This claim can't be true just because you say it is or feel strongly that it is (and please keep in mind that existence is objective; if musical perfection exists, it necessarily exists for everyone).
    Last edited by RogerWaters; Jul-03-2020 at 00:53.

  10. #760
    Senior Member Brahmsianhorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,723
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Why should we all think that murder is immoral?

  11. #761
    Senior Member RogerWaters's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    877
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    Why should we all think that murder is immoral?
    Let's not get into morals or religion, please. I'm wondering about music.

  12. #762
    Senior Member Brahmsianhorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,723
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerWaters View Post
    Let's not get into morals or religion, please. I'm wondering about music.
    But all your same arguments against my thesis apply. That’s the point. You can use the same arguments against anything non-tangible.

  13. #763
    Senior Member RogerWaters's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    877
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    But all your same arguments against my thesis apply. That’s the point. You can use the same arguments against anything non-tangible.
    There are perfectly reasonable pragmatic arguments for disqualifying murder from the list of actions citizens may perform unhindered by the law - it makes society a more desireable place to live for most. No appeal to mysterious substances or properties.

    Now please, back to the issue... why should we all believe musical 'perfection' exists?

    Sigh. It would be so much easier if you just admitted:

    1. Furtwangler is your favourite conductor
    2. This is simply because Furtwangler happens to play a score in a way you (and other F fans) prefer, and not because there is some objective fact/thing/essence Furtwangler is tapping into more than other conductors.
    Last edited by RogerWaters; Jul-03-2020 at 01:23.

  14. #764
    Senior Member Brahmsianhorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,723
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerWaters View Post
    Sigh. It would be so much easier if you just admitted:

    1. Furtwangler is your favourite conductor
    2. This is simply because Furtwangler happens to play a score in a way you (and other F fans) prefer.
    That’s old news. That’s not what this is about. The debate is whether there is such a thing as an objective way vs a subjective way to perform music. My thesis is that it is all subjective in search of the objective.

  15. #765
    Senior Member RogerWaters's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    877
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    That’s old news.
    So you endorse 1 and 2 now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    The debate is whether there is such a thing as an objective way vs a subjective way to perform music. My thesis is that it is all subjective in search of the objective.
    Ok, but you have yet to provide any good reasons for the existence of this 'objective', when it comes to music (such that this 'objective' is not the score!).
    Last edited by RogerWaters; Jul-03-2020 at 01:28.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •