Page 20 of 20 FirstFirst ... 101617181920
Results 286 to 295 of 295

Thread: How should we interpret the end of Gotterdammerung?

  1. #286
    Senior Member annaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    596
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JAS View Post
    Part of the problem with the idea that any music can sound like anything is that it forgets the fact that in addition to the music and the composer's intentions, we have a listener with an established context. (In addition, there are some characteristics of the human brain that are innate, such as pattern recognition. These might be changed by evolution, but it takes an exceedingly long time for that to happen.)
    What do you mean by "established context"? What I try to say is that Wagner rejected his own Schopenhauerian ending and didn't put anything else straightforwardly Schopenhauerian into the opera, we can interpret it through Schopenhauer, as Wagner himself interpreted Wotan, but we don't have to necessarily see it as Wagner's intention. Schopenhauer's influences in the Ring are not comparable to those in his later operas, like Parsifal. The argument which Parsifal98 was making, as I understood it, was that the Schopenhauerian ending is in the music. I'm interested in reading the original text that Parsifal98 quoted because if the ending is Schopenhauerian and Wagner clearly stated so, I'd welcome it openly but I'm just cautious when it comes to interpretations that are expressed only through the music. The composer must put them into words and writing somewhere for them to be objectively legitimate. At least that's my view. I beg your pardon if I dismissed this view without thoroughly looking into it . I'll try to find that letter or writing quoted.

    I oversimplified my argument through my example - while there are certainly means that can be used to, in most people, stimulate happy or sad emotions, there's nothing that I'm aware of to convey anything as specific as Schopenhauer's theory. What should be the tempo, harmonics, orchestration etc. to make a random listener think that this is certainly Schopenhauerian or this is Kantian or Hegelian? I don't know, Wagner might be one of a very few composers whom I'd suspect to possess such an understanding but I myself certainly do not. Then again I'm also not a world-famous composer. Music has an ability to express emotions superbly well, this I think is one of the main reasons I love it so much, but it still remains a lot more abstract than literature. "Expressiveness" and "expression" should be separated - while in literature one could state that "I'm sad" (expression), then through music the composers expresses a sad face (expressive). Complex things, on the other hand, as Schopenhauer's philosophy are much more easy to put into words than into such abstract expressiveness. Music itself is inherently abstract because it's connections with the real world are questionable and have been questioned. When I talk about pure music, I leave composer's intentions aside, I only care for the notes played. When I talk about a piece, then yes, composer's intentions should be considered. If music itself was inherently happy or sad or Schopenhauerian I should be able to determine that without knowing composer's intentions - that's why it's "inherent". I can say that Tristan is Schopenhauerian because I know that was Wagner's intention but even then I wouldn't go as far as to say that Tristan's music is inherently Schopenhauerian ( = the notes played are somehow Schopenhauerian). (A lot of this has already been discussed in Religious Music subforum - it was a thread called "Religious music without lyrics" or something similar).
    Last edited by annaw; May-29-2020 at 17:53.

  2. #287
    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    moscow, russia.
    Posts
    1,146
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by annaw View Post
    Music has an ability to express emotions superbly well, this I think is one of the main reasons I love it so much, but it still remains a lot more abstract than literature.
    music comes from literature, a music score is a literature piece, only read out by musical instruments.

    Quote Originally Posted by annaw View Post
    "Expressiveness" and "expression" should be separated - while in literature one could state that "I'm sad" (expression), then through music the composers expresses a sad face (expressive).
    'sad face' can be expressed through a minor based chord, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by annaw View Post
    Music itself is inherently abstract because it's connections with the real world are questionable and have been questioned.
    music was invented by man, how can it be abstract?

    Quote Originally Posted by annaw View Post
    When I talk about pure music, I leave composer's intentions aside,
    what is 'pure music'?
    Last edited by Zhdanov; May-29-2020 at 18:00.

  3. Likes VitellioScarpia liked this post
  4. #288
    Senior Member annaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    596
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    music comes from literature, a music score is a literature piece, only read out by musical instruments.



    'sad face' can be expressed through a minor based chord, for example.



    music was invented by man, how can it be abstract?



    what is 'pure music'?
    Pure music is music without vocals. In opera it's the orchestral playing without considering vocals. Symphonies, chamber music etc. are all examples of so called pure music while lieder WITH vocals is not. When you analysed it as pure music you should either analyse only the piano/orchestral playing or consider vocals as just... sounds without any meaning.
    Last edited by annaw; May-29-2020 at 18:15.

  5. #289
    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    moscow, russia.
    Posts
    1,146
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by annaw View Post
    In opera it's the orchestral playing without considering vocals.
    that's only with belcanto operas maybe, but the rest are tied closely to the words.

    Quote Originally Posted by annaw View Post
    Symphonies, chamber music etc. are all examples of so called pure music
    symphonies are not pure music, if so. Shostakovich 4th is completely different from his 7th for a reason.

    take Brahms 1st for example, the timpani beat a combat march to portray a genocide:


  6. #290
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    London UK
    Posts
    3,160
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JAS View Post
    Part of the problem with the idea that any music can sound like anything is that it forgets the fact that in addition to the music and the composer's intentions, we have a listener with an established context. (In addition, there are some characteristics of the human brain that are innate, such as pattern recognition. These might be changed by evolution, but it takes an exceedingly long time for that to happen.)
    I agree with you on this one. Music can be abstract, but doesn't have to be and there are meanings associated with particular melodic ideas, keys or rhythms dependent on cultural context and human biology.

    However annaw is correct that music alone can't point us in the direction of something as complex as the workings of a major philosophy. A piece of music may be intended to convey the ideas in such a philosophy and if one is familiar with the philosophy one would understand the connection, but I think very few (if any) would make the connection if they didn't know it were already there.

    That said, I think Schopenhauer is in the mix of ideas for the end of Gotterdamerung, but it is only so for the gods. Wotan welcomes his end after all. However, Wagner (I think) realised that an ending is also another beginning.

    N.

  7. Likes annaw liked this post
  8. #291
    Senior Member annaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    596
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Conte View Post
    I agree with you on this one. Music can be abstract, but doesn't have to be and there are meanings associated with particular melodic ideas, keys or rhythms dependent on cultural context and human biology.

    However annaw is correct that music alone can't point us in the direction of something as complex as the workings of a major philosophy. A piece of music may be intended to convey the ideas in such a philosophy and if one is familiar with the philosophy one would understand the connection, but I think very few (if any) would make the connection if they didn't know it were already there.

    That said, I think Schopenhauer is in the mix of ideas for the end of Gotterdamerung, but it is only so for the gods. Wotan welcomes his end after all. However, Wagner (I think) realised that an ending is also another beginning.

    N.
    You put my idea into words better than I did myself !
    Last edited by annaw; May-29-2020 at 21:25.

  9. Likes The Conte, Parsifal98 liked this post
  10. #292
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    Posts
    264
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    music comes from literature, a music score is a literature piece, only read out by musical instruments.
    I am going to perhaps go on a limb here but what Zhdanov says above resonates so truthfully to me. When I listen to music, including non vocal music, I hear ideas and not just sounds or emotions. This is what I find so compelling about music and in particular with vocal music, there's the sung text and its concepts plus the unsung ideas and concepts.

  11. Likes The Conte, annaw, Zhdanov liked this post
  12. #293
    Senior Member annaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    596
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VitellioScarpia View Post
    I am going to perhaps go on a limb here but what Zhdanov says above resonates so truthfully to me. When I listen to music, including non vocal music, I hear ideas and not just sounds or emotions. This is what I find so compelling about music and in particular with vocal music, there's the sung text and its concepts plus the unsung ideas and concepts.
    Oh, I certainly didn’t want to say that perceiving music as just mere sounds is something that one should do on regular basis. I was rather trying to say that to evaluate the inherent qualities of music, like “Schopenhauerianism” (all you native speakers, is this even a word ?), that are not dependent on any context given by the composer, one should forget about everything else except the music itself.

  13. Likes Parsifal98 liked this post
  14. #294
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    4
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    What I meant by the music of the end of Götterdämmerung being Schopenhaurian is how the different musical ideas (leitmotivs, harmonies and the likes) are built to express certains ideas. Before the "Immolation scene", there is more than 14 hours of music which as been contextualised and associated to different ideas. Wagner then takes this music (or musical ideas) which are charged with meaning and builds them in a way to convey a specific message, which is the one conveyed by the verses that he scraped because in his view, the music that he had composed was clear enough.

    P.S.: I am sorry if what I am writing is not clear... English is not my first language

  15. #295
    Senior Member annaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    596
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Parsifal98 View Post
    What I meant by the music of the end of Götterdämmerung being Schopenhaurian is how the different musical ideas (leitmotivs, harmonies and the likes) are built to express certains ideas. Before the "Immolation scene", there is more than 14 hours of music which as been contextualised and associated to different ideas. Wagner then takes this music (or musical ideas) which are charged with meaning and builds them in a way to convey a specific message, which is the one conveyed by the verses that he scraped because in his view, the music that he had composed was clear enough.

    P.S.: I am sorry if what I am writing is not clear... English is not my first language
    Oh, if you meant also leitmotifs then it's a different case I suppose. With those I can understand how Wagner could have managed to achieve a Schopenhauerian ending.

    (English is also not my first language, so I absolutely understand!)

  16. Likes Parsifal98 liked this post
Page 20 of 20 FirstFirst ... 101617181920

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •