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Thread: Spiritual experiences with music.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbang View Post
    Perhaps it would be more correct to say we lose the physicality of existence, the bondage of being enslaved to the awareness of being so physical that we think it is the only experience we can have.
    This is also how I perceive spirituality, and it can't be expressed much better IMO. Like some others here I have experiences like that rather often. Music - particularly Bach's more spiritual music, the Art of Fugue e. g. may evoke this state of mind.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member isorhythm's Avatar
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    Yes, I know what you mean. It's distinct from being emotionally involved in the music. I get this with Mahler's 9th and Das Lied, a fair amount of late Beethoven, Mozart, Bach (more from his instrumental works than explicitly religious ones, which often seem to focus on the emotions of the individual penitent or the drama of the text), and a lot of the major works of medieval and Renaissance music.

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  5. #33
    Senior Member pianozach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    What is your problem? Why are you questioning this and critiquing all the answers?
    What's your agenda?
    Why does anyone here owe you an explanation?
    Are you a total rationalist, or an anti-religious nut?
    Just looking for some clarification. No need for you to get all pissy. Why so defensive?

    Several others here gave some decent answers. You, on the other hand, seem to have taken the challenge personally.

    Lockdown getting to you?
    Last edited by pianozach; May-24-2020 at 23:51.

  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Why are you saying this? Is it for the benefit of those who can't tolerate the word "spiritual"? I guess this would include all ultra-rationalists, orthodox Christians, atheists, philosophers, free thinkers, etc.

    I experience what I would call "spiritual" moments quite often. It's no big deal, and every human is capable of it.
    Well, this is too complex and subtle to get into here. In short, if a person states they do not believe in any spiritual experience (except that it is really is physical based) they are admitting they have not any experiences that cast doubt on their beliefs. If a person has had experiences it is not a matter of belief or debate, it simply is. Lots of people who believe in spiritual teachings have never had a true experience but they are not grasping that our everyday life is a spiritual phenomena but cannot see this due to a lack of certain things that have to happen, one is they have a chance encounter that opens something up for an experience or doing certain things so much (meditation/prayer etc) that open a door. Anyway, I think it is fair to say most people are referring to being moved when listening to music. Emotion can be said (this is one of the mysterious of the brain) to be spiritual as how does a brain cause it? The materialist says just because we cannot explain it now does not mean we won't in the future.............

    Anyway, I am very familiar with the arguments but I use my own experiences to gauge what I take in about this issue as well.
    Last edited by Bigbang; May-25-2020 at 01:23.

  7. #35
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianozach View Post
    Just looking for some clarification. No need for you to get all pissy. Why so defensive?

    Several others here gave some decent answers. You, on the other hand, seem to have taken the challenge personally.

    Lockdown getting to you?
    Like the man said, "Lady, if you don't know what 'diddy-wah-diddy' means by now, don't ask!"

  8. #36
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbang View Post
    In short, if a person states they do not believe in any spiritual experience (except that it is really is physical based) they are admitting they have not any experiences that cast doubt on their beliefs. If a person has had experiences it is not a matter of belief or debate, it simply is.
    Yes, there are many automatons among us. When the Great Fire comes, they shall be totally annihilated, and only the realized spirits shall remain.

  9. #37
    Senior Member Joe B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by premont View Post
    If you want to maintain your credibility, you must avoid claims like these.
    If you re-read my post, I never made any claims, so I think my credibility is still in tact. I stated the descriptions given to two anomalies by a cardiologist specializing in heart arrhythmia's who graduated from Harvard. These were stated as a matter of fact without discussion. What I did state, was that the incidents recorded by the monitor coincided with something relevant to an earlier post about "A physical hypometabolic state?" and its possible relationship to what can be termed a 'spiritual' experience.
    I love music. I want music. I need music.

  10. #38
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    I've listened to Terry Riley's Persian Surgery Dervishes and it changed my brain waves; I could tell.










    I love music. I want music. I need music. I got's ta have music. And a pok'chop sandwich.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-25-2020 at 18:42.

  11. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    If you re-read my post, I never made any claims, so I think my credibility is still in tact. I stated the descriptions given to two anomalies by a cardiologist specializing in heart arrhythmia's who graduated from Harvard. These were stated as a matter of fact without discussion. What I did state, was that the incidents recorded by the monitor coincided with something relevant to an earlier post about "A physical hypometabolic state?" and its possible relationship to what can be termed a 'spiritual' experience.
    Well, I can just about bet that a cardiologist from Harvard is not really believing you were without a heart beat for that amount of time as he would not know how to work that part in on what he learned in medical school. Generally you would be unconscious without a heartbeat. If there was any malfunction of equipment that might be something else.

    I am aware of the claims of yogi lore about no breath and no heartbeat. There are all kinds of fantastic tales about the feats of the supernormal. But a medical doctor is not going to throw out his medical textbooks out the window believing things not even remotely possible according to science, unless he is Deepak Chopra.

  12. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    If you re-read my post, I never made any claims, so I think my credibility is still in tact. I stated the descriptions given to two anomalies by a cardiologist specializing in heart arrhythmia's who graduated from Harvard. These were stated as a matter of fact without discussion. What I did state, was that the incidents recorded by the monitor coincided with something relevant to an earlier post about "A physical hypometabolic state?" and its possible relationship to what can be termed a 'spiritual' experience.
    How was the heart action monitored? By means of EKG? Probably not, because if you had been without heart action for that long time, you had been dead since long, unless maybe you received immediate resuscitation. But if you were monitored by peripheral pulse palpation, the pulse may have been so weak as to be impalpable, even if the heart was still working.
    Last edited by premont; May-26-2020 at 10:56.

  13. #41
    Senior Member Joe B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by premont View Post
    How was the heart action monitored? By means of EKG? Probably not, because if you had been without heart action for that long time, you had been dead since long, unless maybe you received immediate resuscitation. But if you were monitored by peripheral pulse palpation, the pulse may have been so weak as to be impalpable, even if the heart was still working.
    I completely agree. The anomaly could very well be explained as the monitor being unable to record a weak/slow pulse.
    The doctor stated, in reference to the data from the halter monitor, that everything appeared fine but that there were two anomalies, when no heart beat was recorded. He reported it and there was no discussion.

    The point of the post was a response to an earlier post referring to a 'spiritual state' as:

    A physical hypometabolic state?

    My post was in response to this. The breathing exercises I was doing are designed to calm and relax the practitioner. Often a sense of 'spirituality' goes along with the practice. On that particular day, I happened to be wearing a halter monitor for a 24 hour period prior to an appointment with a cardiologist. I was making a connection between a 'spiritual' state of mind and a hypometabolic event. My assumption was that my heart rate and respiration did indeed slow down. If my heart rate was (slow/weak) below the threshold of the monitor to detect, then there might be a correlation between a hypometabolic state and having the sense of being in a 'spiritual state'.
    I love music. I want music. I need music.

  14. #42
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    I think anyone who has gone into a meditative state can understand experientially the effects of slowed heart rate and slowed brain waves. No explanation is necessary, only experience, which is what we're talking about: spiritual experiences of music.

    How did we go off on this rationalist, atheist, pseudo-scientific philosophical tangent? Boring!

    I think it's possible with Wagner, Bruckner, Beethoven, Debussy, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff, Mahler, to have "spiritual" impressions which do not necessarily cause any real changes in metabolism; they still remain in the "conscious" realm, so are more metaphoric of such experiences.

    But some music out there is capable: early Philip Glass, Terry Riley, Steve Reich, Stockhausen, John Cage...depending on the performance, circumstances, the individual listener's disposition.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-26-2020 at 14:49.

  15. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    I completely agree. The anomaly could very well be explained as the monitor being unable to record a weak/slow pulse.
    The doctor stated, in reference to the data from the halter monitor, that everything appeared fine but that there were two anomalies, when no heart beat was recorded. He reported it and there was no discussion.
    A Holter monitor, which you mention, doesn't record the pulse but the electrical activity of the heart (EKG), and if there is no detectable electrical activity recorded, the heart isn't working. If this state lasts for more then a few seconds, consciousness is lost and death will follow soon, so the state can't have lasted for 4 or 7 minutes, as you write. I suppose you got the doctor wrong.

  16. #44
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    Music is definately a spiritual experience for me. When I'm listening to Bach, I want to be a Lutheran. When I'm listening to Bruckner or Schubert's Ave Maria I want to be Roman Catholic. When I'm listening to Rimsky's Russian Easter Overture or Rachmaninoff's Vespers/All Night Vigil I want to be Eastern Orthodox. When I'm listening to a great Gospel singer like Mahalia Jackson, Shirley Caesar, Marion Williams, or Johnny Cash (yes, Country singer Cash was also a great Gospel singer!), I want to be a Southern Baptist. When I'm listening to Bruch's Kol Nidrei or Bernstein's Chinchester Psalms, I want to be Jewish.

    While I understand that the appeal may be all psychological, I also believe that music involves the search for beauty and truth.
    Last edited by Coach G; May-26-2020 at 17:09. Reason: typos/after-thought

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  18. #45
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    How did we go off on this rationalist, atheist, pseudo-scientific philosophical tangent? Boring!
    Those pesky atheists and rationalists! Always turning up to ruin a thread.

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