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Thread: Is this an example of bariolage?

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    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
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    Default Is this an example of bariolage?

    I'm looking for the name of what the violins do at the start of BWV 9:

    bariolage.png

    That repeated switching between E and G# and then F# and E/D# you see in the second beat of bar 2 of that example is what I'm talking about.

    Is that an example of bariolage? If it isn't, does it have a proper name?

    Thanks in advance...
    Last edited by AbsolutelyBaching; Jun-15-2020 at 11:45.

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    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    That's not bariolage AB. Two strings are used in that example, but bariolage commonly refers to the same note being played alternatively on two strings. For instance, one can play an open E string on the violin and also finger the same E on the A string. The sound of bariolage is based on the interplay between the open ringing string and the stopped note.

    I don't think there is a specific name for what vln1 does in the example other than it being a typical Bachian line that's idiomatic for the instrument, the 6th from G sharp to E being an easily fingered interval across 2 strings (D+A in this case), as is the Fsharp/E seventh resolving to another 6th (Fsharp and D sharp).
    Last edited by mikeh375; Jun-15-2020 at 12:51.
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    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
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    I'm grateful for the clarification, and coming from a source I'd trust, too!

    My previous non-trustworthy source (wikipedia!) mentioned that bariolage "may involve quick alternation between a static note and changing notes that form a melody either above or below the static note", which implies more than one note played on two strings, though.

    So I'll happily accept my example is not bariolage
    But I wish it had a name

    Thanks for taking the time to answer!

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    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbsolutelyBaching View Post
    I'm grateful for the clarification, and coming from a source I'd trust, too!

    My previous non-trustworthy source (wikipedia!) mentioned that bariolage "may involve quick alternation between a static note and changing notes that form a melody either above or below the static note", which implies more than one note played on two strings, though.

    So I'll happily accept my example is not bariolage
    But I wish it had a name

    Thanks for taking the time to answer!
    Yes, I didn't want to complicate the answer further but more often than not, and using an open E as an example, the A string can play other notes too. A quick search yielded this as an example, the upturned stems are the open E string......thanks for the compliment..

    cutler_ex12.gif


    EDIT looking further into that example, one sees an identical progression to the Bach you referenced from b26 cf, only this time with bariolage...that was lucky.
    Last edited by mikeh375; Jun-15-2020 at 13:16.
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    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    Yes, I didn't want to complicate the answer further but more often than not, and using an open E as an example, the A string can play other notes too. A quick search yielded this as an example, the upturned stems are the open E string......thanks for the compliment..

    cutler_ex12.gif


    EDIT looking further into that example, one sees an identical progression to the Bach you referenced from b26 cf, only this time with bariolage...that was lucky.
    So, for it to be bariolage, is the point that one of the note must be played stopped and one must be played open? It's not just a repetition of notes, but the quality of the note sound?

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    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    Pretty much. The alternating (not always literally) timbre of the open resonance against the stopped string for the same note is the main characteristic and can be exploited in many ways.
    Last edited by mikeh375; Jun-15-2020 at 13:26.
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    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    Pretty much. The alternating (not always literally) timbre of the open resonance against the stopped string for the same note is the main characteristic and can be exploited in many ways.
    Thanks. I am a slow learner!
    Do you happen to be able to cite a passage from someone I might have (or be able to obtain) that would be bariolage?

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    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    There are examples in the Britten cello suites. Specifically, the allegro in the 3rd suite utilises it from b22 cf as does the Bordone in the first suite in b14.
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    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    There are examples in the Britten cello suites. Specifically, the allegro in the 3rd suite utilises it from b22 cf as does the Bordone in the first suite in b14.
    Ah-ha. This bit, then:

    cellosuite1.png

    I assume the notation III means play on the third string and IV means play the same note on the 4th string? I can definitely hear the effect at 19:41 of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjuiEkgJF2g if so. And on that basis, I can see ..or, rather, hear... why the Bach example isn't bariolage.

    Could we call the Bach bariolage-esque, do you think?!

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    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbsolutelyBaching View Post
    Ah-ha. This bit, then:

    cellosuite1.png

    I assume the notation III means play on the third string and IV means play the same note on the 4th string? I can definitely hear the effect at 19:41 of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjuiEkgJF2g if so. And on that basis, I can see ..or, rather, hear... why the Bach example isn't bariolage.

    Could we call the Bach bariolage-esque, do you think?!

    You got it. I wouldn't say the Bach you posted was bariolagey (?) in any sense really. The example you gave is pretty much fingered as double stops over the D+A strings, there is no characteristic repetition and the E is not played on the open string anyway, so no timbral traits niether. If the E was played open, it'd make life very awkward for the player as they would have to skip the A string to play the G sharps and F sharps on the D string - not recommended at all...
    Last edited by mikeh375; Jun-15-2020 at 15:54.
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    Senior Member DaddyGeorge's Avatar
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    I started learning the violin when I was an adult, so I still often use youtube instructional videos. I'm not experienced enough to answer, but try this for clarity:



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    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    You got it. I wouldn't say the Bach you posted was bariolagey (?) in any sense really. The example you gave is pretty much fingered as double stops over the D+A strings, there is no characteristic repetition and the E is not played on the open string anyway, so no timbral traits niether. If the E was played open, it'd make life very awkward for the player as they would have to skip the A string to play the G sharps and F sharps on the D string - not recommended at all...
    I get it now!

    Muchos gratias.

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    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaddyGeorge View Post
    I started learning the violin when I was an adult, so I still often use youtube instructional videos. I'm not experienced enough to answer, but try this for clarity:
    Those are very helpful videos, so thank you for them. It's quite obvious that bariolage is nothing close to the 'rocking between notes' effect I was looking at in the Bach... and I feel like I learnt something from all this back-and-forth. Thanks to you both.

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    ...bariolage commonly refers to the same note being played alternatively on two strings. For instance, one can play an open E string on the violin and also finger the same E on the A string. The sound of bariolage is based on the interplay between the open ringing string and the stopped note.
    Yeah, Carlos Santana does that all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by AbsolutelyBaching View Post
    Thanks. I am a slow learner!
    Do you happen to be able to cite a passage from someone I might have (or be able to obtain) that would be bariolage?
    Listen to his solo at 1:12.

    https://youtu.be/PbjmIHOJ_PA

    Last edited by millionrainbows; Jun-16-2020 at 14:27.

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