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Thread: First Claim: Harmony and Counterpoint Constrain One Another

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Default First Claim: Harmony and Counterpoint Constrain One Another

    From A Geometry of Music, Dmitri Tymoczko:

    "Any two major chords can be connected by stepwise voice leading in which no voice moves by more than two semitones. This means you can write a harmonic progression without worrying about melody; that is, for any sequence of major chords, there is always some way to connect the notes so as to form stepwise melodies.
    What about the chromatic cluster B, C, Db followed by E, F, Gb (its transposition by ascending fourth)? Here, none of the notes of the first 'chord' are within two semitones of any note in the second, and hence there is no way to combine a sequence of these chords so as to produce conjunct melodies. At the same time, however, the chromatic cluster can do things that the C major chord can't. It is possible to write contrapuntal music in which individual melodic lines move short distances within a single, unchanging harmony. This is possible only because the chord's notes are all clustered together, ensuring that there is always a short path between any two of them."
    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-25-2020 at 20:24.

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    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    From A Geometry of Music, Dmitri Tymoczko:

    Any two major chords can be connected by stepwise voice leading in which no voice moves by more than two semitones. This means you can write a harmonic progression without worrying about melody; that is, for any sequence of major chords, there is always some way to connect the notes so as to form stepwise melodies.
    What about the chromatic cluster B, C, Db followed by E, F, Gb (its transposition by ascending fourth)? Here, none of the notes of the first 'chord' are within two semitones of any note in the second, and hence there is no way to combine a sequence of these chords so as to produce conjunct melodies. At the same time, however, the chromatic cluster can do things that the C major chord can't. It is possible to write contrapuntal music in which individual melodic lines move short distances within a single, unchanging harmony. This is possible only because the chord's notes are all clustered together, ensuring that there is always a short path between any two of them.
    All of the above is a quotation of Tymoczko's words? If not, please use quotation marks to indicate which words are his.

    What greater comfort does time afford than the objects of terror re-encountered and their fraudulence exposed in the flash of reason?
    — William Gaddis, The Recognitions

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    All of the above is a quotation of Tymoczko's words? If not, please use quotation marks to indicate which words are his.
    So, I sound like him, or he sounds like me? Either way, I'll take that as an insult.

    That's just one of four claims, Edward. You can look forward to a nice slash-fest. Sharpen up your knife!
    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-25-2020 at 20:28.

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    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    So, I sound like him, or he sounds like me? Either way, I'll take that as an insult.

    That's just one of four claims, Edward. You can look forward to a nice slash-fest. Sharpen up your knife!
    It's perfectly obvious that Dmitri didn't write the second sentence. Did he write any of the rest of it beyond the first sentence?

    What greater comfort does time afford than the objects of terror re-encountered and their fraudulence exposed in the flash of reason?
    — William Gaddis, The Recognitions

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
    Basil Valentine

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    It's perfectly obvious that Dmitri didn't write the second sentence. Did he write any of the rest of it beyond the first sentence?
    Duly noted. It's all a direct quote.

    https://www.amazon.com/Geometry-Musi...s=books&sr=1-1
    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-25-2020 at 20:46.

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    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Duly noted. It's all a direct quote.

    https://www.amazon.com/Geometry-Musi...s=books&sr=1-1
    It isn't quite, but it's pretty close to what he wrote on pp. 13-14. So, what interests you about this passage? Why are you quoting it? Is there a point you are trying to demonstrate or are you just trying to sell more copies of Tymozcko's book?

    You do understand that one should indicate where one's quotation deviates from a text one is quoting, right? If you need any help with how to do this I'd be glad to help.
    Last edited by EdwardBast; May-25-2020 at 22:43.

    What greater comfort does time afford than the objects of terror re-encountered and their fraudulence exposed in the flash of reason?
    — William Gaddis, The Recognitions

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
    Basil Valentine

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    error...........
    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-26-2020 at 13:43.

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    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Seriously though, it sounds like a very interesting book and perspective and I hope it generates some good discussion.

    What greater comfort does time afford than the objects of terror re-encountered and their fraudulence exposed in the flash of reason?
    — William Gaddis, The Recognitions

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
    Basil Valentine

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    Seriously though, it sounds like a very interesting book and perspective and I hope it generates some good discussion.
    Uh-huh..............Me too.

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    Senior Member Torkelburger's Avatar
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    But doesn't he say "two major chords"? And "sequence of major chords"? B, C, Db and E, F, Gb are not major chord qualities so would not apply to what he is talking about.

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torkelburger View Post
    But doesn't he say "two major chords"? And "sequence of major chords"? B, C, Db and E, F, Gb are not major chord qualities so would not apply to what he is talking about.
    I've abandoned this thread, Torkelburger. See the other one, with the "corrrected" quote, done for EdwardBast's benefit.

    I'll paste your reply over there & reply to it.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-26-2020 at 15:59.

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    It isn't quite, but it's pretty close to what he wrote on pp. 13-14. So, what interests you about this passage? Why are you quoting it? Is there a point you are trying to demonstrate or are you just trying to sell more copies of Tymozcko's book?

    You do understand that one should indicate where one's quotation deviates from a text one is quoting, right? If you need any help with how to do this I'd be glad to help.
    EdwardBast: I consider your questioning of the citation as insulting. The rest of your posts are insulting, as well, and are condescending, designed to abort this thread from its outset. I have reported this to the mods, but they have apparently decided not to remove them.
    I really don't understand how you are able to get away with these sorts of actions, unless you hold special favor as an 'inside' advisor to the mods.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-27-2020 at 16:11.

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    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    I don't get the claim that harmony and counterpoint constrain each other, based on that quote in the original post. The conclusion reached by Dmitri is that you can write counterpoint within unchanging harmony, but that doesn't pose a limitation on the harmony that can be reached with counterpoint. I'll make a counter claim that there are unlimited possibilities in harmony that can be reached with counterpoint.
    Last edited by Phil loves classical; May-27-2020 at 17:45.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    What the OP shows us is that CP classical music is a self-fulfilling system which is virtually 'automatic' in nature; a no-brainer for composers like Mozart, Handel, Vivaldi, and Haydn. The diatonic scale, which divides the octave up so evenly, and fits together in such a closely-related cookie cutter fashion, is an easy environment in which to do counterpoint and compose conjunct melodies for; they practically compose themselves. you can look in any direction and find a closely related chord or voice which is a member of a chord; do you want harmony A, B, or C? A harmonic buffet; whatever suits your fancy.

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    Senior Member Torkelburger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    What the OP shows us is that CP classical music is a self-fulfilling system which is virtually 'automatic' in nature; a no-brainer for composers like Mozart, Handel, Vivaldi, and Haydn. The diatonic scale, which divides the octave up so evenly, and fits together in such a closely-related cookie cutter fashion, is an easy environment in which to do counterpoint and compose conjunct melodies for; they practically compose themselves. you can look in any direction and find a closely related chord or voice which is a member of a chord; do you want harmony A, B, or C? A harmonic buffet; whatever suits your fancy.
    If that's the case, then it should be no problem for you at all to compose say, a double period or so of piano music equally as good or even better than Beethoven Sonatas 14, 17, 21, 23, 29. Since the composition is automatic and the music composes itself, this should take you a matter of minutes. Post your composition that proves your theory to the world one hour from now and let us be the judge.

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