Page 4 of 25 FirstFirst 1234567814 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 367

Thread: What is it about Mozart? A Confessional Thread

  1. #46
    Senior Member S P Summers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    138
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Al View Post
    I think with the Haydn piano sonatas I may indeed get there in due course. I will keep trying. I sense that they are too radical for me. Was he experimenting in a very personal way with those, rather than pleasing patrons? Genuine question, as I am not knowledgeable about the history.
    I need to revisit these sonatas. What are some of the most "radical" of them all?

  2. #47
    Senior Member S P Summers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    138
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by isorhythm View Post
    When people say Mozart's music is predictable, what they mean is that it sounds inevitable - once you hear it, you feel it couldn't have been any other way. But it's not predictable at all.

    I would suggest reading The Classical Style by Charles Rosen. It may not make you like Mozart, but might give you a better idea of what people hear in him.
    I absolutely love Charles Rosen's playing, I own several of his albums. I'm going to buy that book.

    Check out this album:

    charlesrosen.jpg

  3. Likes isorhythm liked this post
  4. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Allegro Con Brio View Post
    Oh, the slow movement of PC 23 is maybe my favorite individual Mozart movement (almost sounds like a Chopin nocturne!), but the outer movements don’t do much for me. For No. 24 it’s the complete opposite. Do check out the fantasias; Hammeredklavier would be more than happy to break down every bar of them and tell you how they’re masterpieces of the keyboard and how they anticipate Wagner’s harmonies - it’s quite a different kind of music than you might be expecting from Mozart.
    Yep, it's probably the slow movement of PC 23, and perhaps that I got into it first. I will try the fantasias, although it is telling that your suggestion is that I might like them because they are not what you would expect from Mozart. With Bach I like things because they are what you would expect from Bach!

  5. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    334
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S P Summers View Post
    I need to revisit these sonatas. What are some of the most "radical" of them all?
    As I said, I'm no expert, and can't tell one from the other. They just seem to me weird. I play piano (badly) and with Bach and Beethoven I can make sense (if not play them); with Mozart it just seems like passage-work to no purpose; and with Haydn I'm baffled. I suspect they are written by someone who is beyond me. A poster who is knowledgeable may have recommendations. My suggestion is Hob XVI, 50, but perhaps because it is comprehensible. Which is not the point.
    Last edited by Eclectic Al; May-27-2020 at 22:13.

  6. #50
    Senior Member Allegro Con Brio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,910
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Al View Post
    As I said, I'm no expert, and can't tell one from the other. They just seem to me weird. I play piano (badly) and with Bach and Beethoven I can make sense (if not play them); with Mozart it just seems like passage-work to no purpose; and with Haydn I'm baffled. I suspect they are written by someone who is beyond me. Someone who is knowledgeable may have recommendations. My suggestion is Hob XVI, 50, but perhaps because it is comprehensible. Which is not the point.
    I’ve learned quite a bit of Mozart (it’s right at the level I can play without making any mistakes) and it’s really all about phrasing and articulation. There are a couple sonatas where the musical material is interesting in itself (Nos. 8, 12, 14, 18) but mostly I’m interested in how pianists use their touch and delivery to convey the emotions from the very simple scores. Listen to Arrau, Pires, Gould, and Say play the sonatas and you’ll hear the difference!
    "If we understood the world, we would realize that there is a logic of harmony underlying its manifold apparent dissonances." - Jean Sibelius

    "Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Beethoven tells you what it’s like to be Beethoven and Mozart tells you what it’s like to be human. Bach tells you what it’s like to be the universe." - Douglas Adams

  7. Likes Eclectic Al liked this post
  8. #51
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,894
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Allegro Con Brio View Post
    I have never been able to understand the depths of sublime profundity that people say they find in the 20th piano concerto, Requiem, Don Giovanni, and Figaro. Maybe it’s just because I’m a very analytical person who wants to overthink everything and I get intensely annoyed at his repetitive harmonies (cadence that goes like this: ascending chromatic scale - da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da TRIIIILLLLLL-doo-doo-doo - AAARRRGGHH IT DRIVES ME CRAZY). Sometimes I get frustrated, wondering why he is considered such a genius when I can see little deeper in him than beguiling tunes and the occasional deeply inspired moment.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mooB5Q-0FIE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjI-iJbxTKw&t=20s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVzN8O54rew&t=10s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXDxigt9CX4
    I don't think you need to make such a huge deal out of something that's inherent in the language of all 18th century masters using all those capital letters. You sound more like you're taking this as a chance to mock, yet again, exaggerating things way out of proportion. =) Personally, I can live without anything Schubert wrote. All his lieder are sentimental exercises of vamps and padding. Just look at Erlkonig, for example. It sounds like a 4-minute long machine gun. In instrumental works, he always strikes me like a "clown" trying too hard to be a master of form. Whenever I look at stuff like:

    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    The way he modulates and everything.. sounds too much like compositional exercises rather than actual serious works.
    Music that is difficult to listen to-d960-png
    If look at certain sections of the Rosamunde quartet, in each measure it goes like — all the voices start on note A, the next measure, on note D, the next, on G, the next, on C.. (Wow..)
    Music that is difficult to listen to-rosamunde-jpg
    in the development section, this gets multipled 4~5 times. (Wow..)
    The emperor is butt-naked right in front of all of us and I always get an urge in the inside to make threads, crying out to everyone "why can't you see it?!". I could write what I honestly feel in those threads about "greatest 19th century/Romantic piano sonatas", but I won't. About the "naked emperor", numbered D960. =)
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; May-27-2020 at 23:40.

  9. #52
    Senior Member Kieran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    2,937
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    I've read the thread, and you sound to me, brother, like a man on the brink of a great obsession. You're like the gent in the old movies who wrings his hands and asks his pal, "what the dickins is it about her, she irritates me so, if I never see her again, it's far too early!"

    Fear not. Take out your pulse and check it. Which is your favourite form of music? You don't like opera, eh? The Maestro is blocked from you there, for the moment. But say you like string quartets, or chamber music in general. You have the magnificent six quartets he composed for Haydn. No need to listen to them all at once - try K421 for size first. Of if a string trio is more your shine, there's K563, a work of grandeur. Look into the piano quartets, the piano quintet, K452 (I think, from memory), these are musical forms Mozart invented, to try fund his business. His great violin sonatas. He had such a range that there might be a way in for you somewhere. Personally, I think the way in is through the slow movements, as you appreciate in his 23rd PC. But look at his 9th, with its innovative opening, that wild first movement followed by a slow, drunken lurch, followed by a galloping romp in the third movement, where - more innovation - he stops the movement to insert a dance.

    If you look at Mozart not as an inveterate chocolate box composer with sweet, simple, unchallenging music, an arch-establishment figure, but come at it from his direction, you might appreciate him more. The working musician, composing works like his great string quintets, K515 and K516, where he hoped an avenue of revenue might open up. Miracles, but hope scorned. There's so much of it, in so many different forms, I feel you're close to that wonderful moment in the movie where you suddenly realise, "by Jove, I cannot live without her, I tell you, I love her!"
    The Brain - is wider than the Sky

  10. Likes flamencosketches, Alinde, Allerius and 1 others liked this post
  11. #53
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,894
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Al View Post
    Was he experimenting in a very personal way with those, rather than pleasing patrons? Genuine question, as I am not knowledgeable about the history.
    There are some examples. The slow movement of F major K533; I recently discussed its possible connection to Wagner: Harmonic Similarities in Wagner and Mozart
    Also, there's a video of Charles Hazlewood discussing the "innovations" in A minor K310: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DDxxsRZ6_0&t=33m55s
    Fantasy-sonata C minor K475/457: Cyclic form in classical works

    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    K457 Adagio / Op.13 "Pathetique"
    Fantasie K397 / Op.31 No.2 "Tempest"
    K394 Prelude / Op.51 "Waldstein"
    Fantasie K475 / Op.57 "Appassionata"
    Fantasie K475 / Op.57 "Appassionata"
    Btw, I read somewhere once that the A flat major andante from Fantasie K608 for mechanical organ, (which Beethoven studied at the time he was writing Pathetique) was probably another source of inspiration for the sonata's slow movement.
    I find the ending of K394 fugue to be one of the most moving moments of keyboard music utilizing major second dissonances: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=005j5xKiroI&t=8m50s

    Also look at:

    Last edited by hammeredklavier; May-28-2020 at 00:51.

  12. #54
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    7,860
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    Mozart's piano sonatas are really not among the greatest in the genre, and I don't know why that is. Maybe deep down he just didn't like the form.
    You keep stating this as if it is fact, it is not. Why do you think so many of the greatest musicians in the world have recorded his sonatas, and continue to make recordings of them? Simply because they say 'Mozart' on them?

  13. Likes Alinde, Kieran liked this post
  14. #55
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Nashville, Tennessee
    Posts
    14,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Al View Post

    Again, please note that I am genuinely not denigrating Mozart, I am just trying to work out what it is that I am missing.
    I'm interested in this thread. I've often wondered what I'm missing. I mean, for Mahler's last word to be "Mozart," well, that wouldn't necessarily be mine.

    Personally, I prefer Haydn over Mozart as well. He's more fun, rhythmic, plays with the orchestration, but when he gets serious, wow (like the Seven Last Words). I don't like his slow movements, though. But his string quartets and his big two oratorios are wonderful, as are his late masses.

    Having said that, I've dipped my toes enough into Mozart that I really do like a ton of his music, though I won't admit it to myself. He tends more to subtlety and elegance, whereas Haydn is more rough-hewn. And he is a supreme melodist. What stand out to me are his late symphonies and piano concertos. And though I don't like opera, his three Da Ponte operas have won me over to the degree that I own recordings of all three (it's the psychological insight he puts into his characters).
    Last edited by Manxfeeder; May-27-2020 at 23:30.

  15. Likes Kieran, BlackAdderLXX liked this post
  16. #56
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,894
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    The problem is that Mozart was only just hitting his stride as a symphonist with the last three great symphonies when he sadly died.
    Bernstein's analysis on Mozart's 40th: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3Ir666I8EY
    I think that from early on, Mozart found his "own voice", while Haydn and Beethoven are distinctively unique themselves (in terms of innovations in monothematicism and its motivic working), -but Mozart also feels different, if you look at the harmony of K184 (which is one of many early Mozart works I appreciate, such as string quartets, K157, K159, K168, K173, and the famous "little" G minor symphony K183)

    [ 2:00~2:30 ]


    I always think Divertimento K334 could count as a "string symphony" (because in the early-mid Classical era, the distinctions between symphony - divertimento - overture were vague.) and this goes beyond the realm of divertimentos, anticipating Mozart's own Haydn quartets. Look at the way he masterfully creates contrast and tension with chromaticism in sections like:

    [ 3:00~3:40 / 7:45~8:45 / 9:50~10:10 / 25:00~26:00 ]


    His other neglected "chamber orchestral" works:

    Last edited by hammeredklavier; May-27-2020 at 23:43.

  17. Likes Kieran liked this post
  18. #57
    Senior Member Allegro Con Brio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,910
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mooB5Q-0FIE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjI-iJbxTKw&t=20s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVzN8O54rew&t=10s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXDxigt9CX4
    I don't think you need to make such a huge deal out of something that's inherent in the language of all 18th century masters using all those capital letters. You sound more like you're taking this as a chance to mock, yet again, exaggerating things way out of proportion. =) Personally, I can live without anything Schubert wrote. All his lieder are exercises of vamps and padding. Just look at Erlkonig, for example. It sounds like a 4-minute long machine gun. In instrumental works, he always strikes me like a "clown" trying too hard to be a master of form. Whenever I look at stuff like:



    The emperor is butt-naked right in front of all of us and I always get an urge in the inside to make threads, crying out to everyone "why can't you see it?!". I could write what I honestly feel in those threads about "greatest 19th century/Romantic piano sonatas", but I won't. About the "naked emperor", numbered D960. =)
    I don’t know why you take it so personally when Mozart is criticized. I admit that I was a little over the top in the quoted post, and for that I apologize. But to say I was “mock[ing] yet again” is a blatant exaggeration. I find Mozart’s use of that Classical-era cadence figure to be more frequent than Haydn (who’s admittedly the only other Classical period composer I am intimately familiar with). I’m not an anti-Mozart crusader by any means. I would hate to trade in his entire ouevre for anyone else who isn’t in my top 5 composers for fear of losing such gems as the slow movements of his 9th and 17th piano concerti and all the other works of his I’ve expressed admiration for. It’s just that I find those deeply affecting moments for me to be comparatively rare within his output. I’m not prepared to debate the formal implications of his compositional style, because I don’t think about how well something is composed when I listen to it, I think about how it moves me. And I’m sorry that you always feel you must drag Schubert into all these conversations. All this is simple personal preference.

    Out of sheer genuine curiosity, who are your top 10 favorite composers? Or you could post them in the dedicated thread that is currently going on if you don’t want to derail too much here.
    Last edited by Allegro Con Brio; May-27-2020 at 23:45.
    "If we understood the world, we would realize that there is a logic of harmony underlying its manifold apparent dissonances." - Jean Sibelius

    "Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Beethoven tells you what it’s like to be Beethoven and Mozart tells you what it’s like to be human. Bach tells you what it’s like to be the universe." - Douglas Adams

  19. Likes flamencosketches, Alinde, Allerius and 3 others liked this post
  20. #58
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    7,860
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    For people that subjectively aren't into Mozart, it is not a big deal. I'm not into Beethoven or Haydn. As far as much of the flashy virtuosity we encounter in the Romantic era, it does not really interest me at all, unless it seems to be there for a reason relating to the logic and undiluted expressive potential of the music. For the majority of listeners there are some big name composers they don't like as much, I think this is pretty normal.

    Actually I get a little suspicious when someone appears to like every big name composer they are 'supposed' to like. Maybe they are just posers? Or perhaps they are trying to appear completely objective as if they are not at all influenced by their own tastes?

    I think it is important to understand why some composers are rated highly, but it is pretty natural not to enjoy every style of music equally, or perhaps not to enjoy some of it at all, even if it is by one of the masters.
    Last edited by tdc; May-27-2020 at 23:50.

  21. Likes Kieran, S P Summers liked this post
  22. #59
    Senior Member Ethereality's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    719
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I get Mozart. I don't really get Brahms as much, even though he's a good composer, I don't grasp his detailed stiffness being better than when Dvorak captures memorable and interesting movement. Germanic and Austrian harmony and rhythm can be a little more humdrum, even Mahler, it feels a little more square and stiff and makes it a little harder to care about.
    Last edited by Ethereality; May-28-2020 at 00:15.

  23. Likes Kieran liked this post
  24. #60
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    7,860
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereality View Post
    I don't really get Brahms as much, even though he's a good composer, I don't grasp his detailed stiffness being better than when Dvorak captures memorable and interesting movement.
    Brahms was a weird one for me because his overall aesthetic is not what I'm initially attracted to in music. At first he did not stand out to me, nor did I even like his music. Over time I began to notice a very attractive appeal beneath the 'surface' of the music. There is also a strength in craftsmanship, it retains its freshness and has a certain durability. When I listen to him now I get much enjoyment, indeed he is among my favorite composers, yet I can still simultaneously hear the aspects of his music that I didn't like at first. On the surface sometimes his music can seem rather average, even dull. I don't hear it that way now, but I can see why some do.
    Last edited by tdc; May-28-2020 at 00:31.

  25. Likes Ethereality, Alinde, S P Summers and 1 others liked this post
Page 4 of 25 FirstFirst 1234567814 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •