Page 4 of 18 FirstFirst 1234567814 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 270

Thread: Has Classical Music become too popular?

  1. #46
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    1,894
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by norman bates View Post
    First, aren't you the one who thinks that classical music ends with Wagner (or at least, that's what you said in other threads)? That would mean that you don't understand anything about modern classical music. That means also that your elitist views are hardly justified if you're not able to get the music of a whole century in that same genre you say you love. How could you consider yourself a better listener if you can't understand the value of a century of that genre?
    And lastly: classical music is already a dusty museum instead of a living force. It would not benefit at all from being an even more exclusive club. Encouraging people to listen to it, showing the value, showing that it's something that can says something to people even now, that would be useful and not just to the ego of some listener that wants to feel like it's a superior human being just because of his music tastes. And lastly: classical music is already a dusty museum instead of a living force. It would not benefit at all from being an even more exclusive club. Encouraging people to listen to it, showing the value, showing that it's something that can says something to people even now, that would be useful and not just to the ego of some listener that wants to feel like it's a superior human being just because of his music tastes.
    You have a lot of good points. I also think that music is subjective to a large degree, classical music isn't necessarily superior to other non-classical genres. But I still think there has to be a clear line dividing classical music from non-classical genres. My contempt/indifference for non-classical genres stems from the feeling/thought "ewww they are too alien in style", rather than "ewww they are too inferior in quality".
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Jun-02-2020 at 06:50.

  2. Likes norman bates liked this post
  3. #47
    Senior Member Couchie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Posts
    2,860
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by norman bates View Post
    This has nothing to do with egalitarianism.

    First, aren't you the one who thinks that classical music ends with Wagner (or at least, that's what you said in other threads)? That would mean that you don't understand anything about modern classical music. That means also that your elitist views are hardly justified if you're not able to get the music of a whole century in that same genre you say you love. How could you consider yourself a better listener if you can't understand the value of a century of that genre?
    A fair question! I do stand by my belief that Classical music reached its zenith with Parsifal, and not with John Cage flicking cactuses. If people want to damn me as an uncultured swine for that opinion, then I am prepared to live with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by norman bates View Post
    Second, the idea that "so that they may look up at it in fear and wonder, pronouncing to them unmistakably their inferiority": I don't even know where to begin. The idea that those who don't listen to classical music should "look up at it in fear and wonder" is just so incredibly laughable and it just says more about your delusion of being "superior" just because you've spent your time listening to classical music. What if someone has spent his live becoming surgeons, or writers, or scientists... should everybody who knows something about a field be so entitled?
    All the good surgeons are egomaniacs, and I wouldn't trust one who wasn't. Same goes for scientists and writers. Why should people not be proud at reaching the peak of an interest. Why do you use such esteemed professions to make your point? If we are going to be egalitarians, ought a prostitute not to be as proud at her work? And the prostitute who drives to her work listening to the Goldberg Variations is yes, vastly superior to the surgeon who listens to One Direction, as far as aesthetic sensibilities are concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by norman bates View Post
    And actually the truth is that especially with younger generations those who listen classical music are more likely seen as weirdos. Go figure if someone is going to watch you like "I'm not worth, I'm inferior" just because you listen to Wagner and they don't.
    Just as the intelligent and talented kids are likely to be seen as "weirdos". It's almost as if we have a fallen culture that glorifies the lowest common denominator so they don't have to feel "inferior" to anybody else. Ah, mediocrity! Let us sing its praises!

    Quote Originally Posted by norman bates View Post
    And talking of having a open mentality: believe it or not, a lot of non classical music has great value (sure, a lot of it is terrible but that's not the point). You think that being a snob is something positive, but being a snob doesn't mean being someone who has a superior understanding of the world (or the music), but just being someone who has prejudices and thinks that those prejudices are truths, and therefore actually isn't able to understand the value of many things.
    No there is clearly a rank to the value of things (given this site's obsession with ranking), and Classical music is at the top. I do not shy away from that position.

    Quote Originally Posted by norman bates View Post
    And lastly: classical music is already a dusty museum instead of a living force. It would not benefit at all from being an even more exclusive club. Encouraging people to listen to it, showing the value, showing that it's something that can says something to people even now, that would be useful and not just to the ego of some listener that wants to feel like it's a superior human being just because of his music tastes.
    We've been trying to bring down Classical music to the masses for decades, and it hasn't improved it one iota, quite the opposite. Let us elevate Classical music and encourage the masses to come up to it, that is the thrust of this thread!
    Last edited by Couchie; Jun-02-2020 at 01:59.
    Doch dieses Wörtlein: und, -wär' es zerstört,
    wie anders als mit Isoldes eignem Leben wär' Tristan der Tod gegeben?

  4. Likes Resurrexit, Allegro Con Brio liked this post
  5. #48
    Senior Member Couchie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Posts
    2,860
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabulin View Post
    As someone currently writing a book on meritocracy, I have to say that stratifying society is not a good idea. There must be plenty of mobility and a rather free market of talent. Otherwise whoever gets groomed will become lazy and complacent, and anyone who is not will become power hungry and willing to take the system down. It wouldn't take many mislabeled smart people leading the masses of "deservedly" labeled low strata dwellers, for such a system to fall. There is a rare (in English) sci-fi book on the topic, titled Limes Inferior, about the exploits of a smart man in a so stratified society, who pretends to be dumber on purpose to work as a counterfeiter of ability tests for the dumb but rich, and not to bear any significant responsibility. If you can find it, it's an entertaining read.
    We owe much to the lazy and complacent aristocrats who wanted the likes of Haydn to write them amusements. Hard busywork is rather overvalued as a cultural commodity, we as a society require much more laziness and time to collect our thoughts!
    Doch dieses Wörtlein: und, -wär' es zerstört,
    wie anders als mit Isoldes eignem Leben wär' Tristan der Tod gegeben?

  6. #49
    Senior Member consuono's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    511
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Room2201974 View Post
    I think that the loss of NPR stations playing classical music is moot. Why would anyone need to listen to classical music on the radio and have to endure the DJ's selections? It's so much easier to just go to YouTube. Instead of one version of Brahms Fourth, you have dozens at your fingertips. Not only that, but YouTube versions also include scores.....you can't get that on the radio. And I say this as a former NPR classical music radio announcer. I have a hard time mourning the loss of the medium when I have more than ever before to choose from.
    That's true, and that 24/7/365 availability may be what's killing not only live performances in the classical world, but pop music too (although in pop music the quality of the product and demographics play a role too). I remember when I was a kid and on into my teens a big-name pop album release was a big event. I can remember people standing in line waiting for the record store to open so they could get Springsteen's just-released Born in the USA album. Those days and that kind of enthusiasm seem be over. Maybe it was drowned in the oversaturated atmosphere.

  7. #50
    Senior Member Simplicissimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Location
    Glenview, Illinois
    Posts
    372
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Room2201974 View Post
    I think that the loss of NPR stations playing classical music is moot. Why would anyone need to listen to classical music on the radio and have to endure the DJ's selections? It's so much easier to just go to YouTube. Instead of one version of Brahms Fourth, you have dozens at your fingertips. Not only that, but YouTube versions also include scores.....you can't get that on the radio. And I say this as a former NPR classical music radio announcer. I have a hard time mourning the loss of the medium when I have more than ever before to choose from.
    There is much more to CM radio than curated CD playlists. There are live and recently recorded concerts by various orchestras, live opera, music analysis and appreciation shows like Bill McGlaughlin’s “Exploring Music,” arts calendars, specialized period shows like Bob Davis’s “Millenium of Music,” Candice Agree’s “Baroque&Before,” and lots of others; shows featuring new CD/Blu-ray releases, shows dedicated to film music, to avant-garde music, shows with studio guest performers who also give interviews... So that one can be pretty well informed about the classical music scene by listening regularly to CM radio. CM radio’s live broadcasts of concerts, which do include some new and non-warhorse pieces, serve as a surrogate to me, as I cannot attend as many concerts in person as I would like due to financial constraints. Somehow, some commercial CM stations are managing to hang on if not thrive through voluntary membership and selling advertising. That said, until 20 years ago there were two commercial CM stations in Chicago and now there’s one. But I believe it will live on because there are fully enough CM enthusiasts around here to support it. And apropos of the topic of this thread, I don’t think the station panders to debased popular tastes. If anyone is worried about the demise of classical music in today’s society, maybe this can give them some reason to be sanguine.
    Last edited by Simplicissimus; Jun-02-2020 at 12:13.

  8. #51
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    2,158
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Agree. Last time I was at a string quartet concert in Giants Stadium, those thousands of screaming fans drove me crazy.

  9. #52
    Senior Member Varick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    701
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Couchie, I can't tell if you're serious or just a master fisherman bored by being locked down for 2-1/2 months.

    Either way, your posts are rather amusing.

    V
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

  10. Likes Couchie liked this post
  11. #53
    Senior Member norman bates's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    3,504
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Couchie View Post
    A fair question! I do stand by my belief that Classical music reached its zenith with Parsifal, and not with John Cage flicking cactuses. If people want to damn me as an uncultured swine for that opinion, then I am prepared to live with that.
    that's exactly the attitude that people who don't like classical music have. They don't think "oh look at that superior human being". They think, look at that snob who think he's better than me because he finds value in that meaningless stuff.


    Quote Originally Posted by Couchie View Post
    All the good surgeons are egomaniacs, and I wouldn't trust one who wasn't. Same goes for scientists and writers. Why should people not be proud at reaching the peak of an interest. Why do you use such esteemed professions to make your point? If we are going to be egalitarians, ought a prostitute not to be as proud at her work? And the prostitute who drives to her work listening to the Goldberg Variations is yes, vastly superior to the surgeon who listens to One Direction, as far as aesthetic sensibilities are concerned.
    sure a lot of extremely talented persons are egomaniacs. But we like them IN SPITE of them being egomaniacs, not because they are like that. Being an egomaniac is not a positive thing, doesn't make that person more approachable or nicer.
    And fortunately it's not a equation as you're saying, there are also extremely talented and knowleadgeable persons that even perfectly knowing their value are humble and nice and they live by the "I know that I don't know" motto.
    I want to put an example I've posted other times that I think you can understand considering what he's doing in the video. Ted Greene, who was a jazz (and rock!) guitarist here giving a music lesson and improvising:



    His knowledge of music was immense and still he was an incredibly humble person too.
    And he was someone who regularly played pop songs by the way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Couchie View Post
    Just as the intelligent and talented kids are likely to be seen as "weirdos". It's almost as if we have a fallen culture that glorifies the lowest common denominator so they don't have to feel "inferior" to anybody else. Ah, mediocrity! Let us sing its praises!
    I'm certainly not for singing the praise of mediocrity, I'm just stating as the world is. The idea that someone would watch persons who listen to classical music as superior is just a deluded dream. And
    one should listen to the music because he likes the music, not to be seen as superior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Couchie View Post
    No there is clearly a rank to the value of things (given this site's obsession with ranking), and Classical music is at the top. I do not shy away from that position.
    does ranking genres have any importance? At the end of the day, genres are made by more or less talented persons. There are geniuses in popular music (as well in other non western musical traditions) and there's classical music that isn't that great and sometimes is just awful.
    The idea of putting a genre on the top seems to imply that just to listen to everything else is like wasting time, forgetting about the work of very talented persons in other genres.

    Quote Originally Posted by Couchie View Post
    We've been trying to bring down Classical music to the masses for decades, and it hasn't improved it one iota, quite the opposite.
    The funny things is that the only classical music enjoyed by the masses is the music that has been played again and again (repetita juvant), that means the most popular composers: Bach, Vivaldi, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Wagner, Puccini, using their music in concerts, radio, movies, commercials.
    When a opera is represented at La Scala you see all the celebrities going there to be seen.
    And for what I know that's exactly the kind of music you like too. Maybe the exposition and familiarity (instead of your idea of exclusion) has a positive role in making the music accepted and understood after all.
    Last edited by norman bates; Jun-02-2020 at 10:10.
    What time is the next swan?

  12. #54
    Senior Member Enthusiast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    8,065
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I'm not comfortable that art - "highbrow art" - should be subject to market forces. It is OK for classical ensembles and orchestras to play more popular music on an economic basis but we should not lose the cutting edge and composers should not be denied the opportunity to explore and invent. I believe the result of this endeavour - including the results from the past (going back centuries) - should be available to all as a right. It will always be a minority interest but it doesn't need to be an elite one. State subsidies could ensure this although that idea may be hard for the holders of some political ideologies to swallow.

  13. Likes BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist liked this post
  14. #55
    Senior Member JAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,948
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Lots of people are chasing the same source of income. If there is sufficient interest to support the financial considerations, composers and performers can do as they please. If there isn't, it will be hard to justify public money to support the creation of what will sound to most taxpayers like little more than noise. (I would be willing to allow a small portion of my tax dollars to go to creating "music" that I don't like and would prefer never to listen to myself, but it would only be a very small portion, and I may be alone in that willingness.)
    Last edited by JAS; Jun-02-2020 at 13:06.

  15. Likes DaveM liked this post
  16. #56
    Senior Member Enthusiast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    8,065
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I am not sure about the argument that state money (aka our taxes) needs to support the stuff that has a large audience. That is the stuff that doesn't need support. But I strongly believe that we all benefit when our governments support cutting edge and high brow art - including lots of art from the past. Even if we don't like the results I think we stand to gain much from living in a country where minority interests are valued and catered for. Countries where the ignorant and the philistines get to control what gets government support end up more miserable and high brow art becomes an elite taste because only elites can afford it.

  17. Likes Resurrexit liked this post
  18. #57
    Senior Member JAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,948
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiast View Post
    . . . Countries where the ignorant and the philistines get to control what gets government support end up more miserable and high brow art becomes an elite taste because only elites can afford it.
    In the end, that is going to be all countries, if it isn't already.

  19. #58
    Senior Member Enthusiast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    8,065
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    ^ Perhaps. For now. But we British do still have some state sponsorship for the arts. It is under constant attack.

  20. #59
    Senior Member JAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,948
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    As resources get tighter everywhere, cutting edge art will be one of the first things to go. More mainstream art will be second. It matters very little whether or not any of us like that outcome. (The military, of course, will pretty much always get whatever it asks for.)
    Last edited by JAS; Jun-02-2020 at 14:22.

  21. #60
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    2,158
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Semi-related: I have a son who studied to be, and is, a theatrical set designer. I was joking once that you rarely hear a parent say "I'm so glad my child is in theatre," but I assured him that I was really proud of him that he had chosen a profession that was integral to the transmission of civilization.

Page 4 of 18 FirstFirst 1234567814 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •