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Thread: Greatest work of the 20th century

  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    I enjoyed the first two minutes, then it all fell apart for me (Rihm gone wild).
    I think it’s interesting precisely because of the way the wild part calls into question any sense of tonal harmony created by the first half. It would be good to have the text, I believe the poems are about mental instability. But my main point was that Rihm’s life’s work has been about exploring ways of responding in his compositions to existing classical music, and this is an example of one of his experiments.
    Last edited by Mandryka; Aug-13-2020 at 22:47.

  2. #257
    Senior Member Bulldog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    I think it’s interesting precisely because of the way the wild part calls into question any sense of tonal harmony created by the first half. It would be good to have the text, I believe the poems are about mental instability. But my main point was that Rihm’s life’s work has been about exploring ways of responding in his compositions to existing classical music, and this is an example of one of his experiments.
    Yes, I can see how the composer was exhibiting his lack of mental stability.

  3. #258
    Senior Member Simon Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    That's a shame - centuries of music down the drain.
    Yes, I know.

    And believe me, I am not exactly happy about it.

    I would LOVE to enjoy classical from pre 20th century periods. Nothing ever wrong with more music

    And it's not for lack of trying. I have a pretty large collection of: Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Etc, etc. And over the years, I have somewhat frequently spun various selections, to see if any of them will click. So far, no go.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

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  5. #259
    Senior Member Simon Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamencosketches View Post
    Most of the classical music people I know in real life tend to have a more balanced outlook toward both Modern and "common practice" classical music, and listen to, play, and find things to appreciate in all of it.
    True.

    And as I said above, I wish I liked more pre 20th century and common practice music. I really wish I was one of those people that had a more balanced outlook toward classical music of all eras.

    That being said, I do like a lot of 20th century music that is not atonal. Bartok, Britten, Barber, Tower, Sibelius, and plenty more.

    And it's not like I have any real lack of composers and pieces to keep me plenty busy. It is actually hard to keep up with discovering new composers and pieces that astonish me. And lucky for me, I have a good friend (a Berklee grad and top LA studio musician) who's taste pretty much parallels mine, so he is constantly feeding me new stuff to listen to.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

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  7. #260
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    They were Mozartean in style. In fact he was annoyed that the friendly Septet Op 20 continued to be so popular to the detriment of his more radical works. You are the one making bizarre statements my friend. I would be grateful if you did not project your own feeling in this way.
    There are sections that remind of Mozart in Beethoven Op.18 No.4, Op.18 No.5, Op.59 No.2, No.3, but on the whole, Beethoven was distinctively Beethovenian early on.

    "Stylistically Spohr's and Beethoven's development as composers took them in diametrically opposite directions. The op. 18 quartets are the point at which they were closest, but from there their paths diverged. Beethoven moved away from the chromaticism of late Mozart towards a broader harmonic style; it is significant that his only preserved comment about Spohr's music should have been 'He is too rich in dissonances; pleasure in his music marred by his chromatic melody.'"
    < Louis Spohr: A Critical Biography , By Clive Brown , Page 99 >

    I don't hear stuff like these in early Beethoven:

    [ 25:00 ]


    [ 7:30 ]
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Aug-14-2020 at 15:36.

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  9. #261
    Senior Member DaveM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon View Post
    ...My problem is, that so many anti-modernists on TC, seem to think their opinions are objective fact. And in addition, the fact that those of us that like modern music are in the minority, does not provide one iota of evidence, that their opinions are objective fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by flamencosketches View Post
    ...But I do appreciate that someone can see where I'm coming from w/r/t the snobbish attitudes of some of the anti-moderns around here. I wonder if it's an internet thing...?
    Those who live in glass houses..

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  11. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanAntone View Post
    Granted you have expressed, in a variety of ways, that you do not enjoy what you call modernist music. Why do you think it is important for you to say this over and over? In my listening, I don't slice music up into categories like modernist and non-modernist, or common practice and post-common practice.

    There is music I enjoy and music that doesn't interest me, and the music I enjoy comes from all periods, as does the other kind. Further I am not interested in convincing anyone to like what I like or vice versa. But I guess if more people felt like I do, Internet music discussion forums would be less active.

    I don’t know why are you think it’s important to say that you think that people who do not enjoy modernist music or snobbish? I wouldn’t of posted if you hadn’t have said that. Your problem is that you think you have the right to say anything you like about other people and then get rather touchy if they say something back to you

  12. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    This was the post which made me react in a way which I regretted.
    So please point out help me believing that Beethoven’s Opus 131 is real genius defines a working class boy like me as a snob?

  13. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon View Post
    Yes, I know.

    And believe me, I am not exactly happy about it.

    I would LOVE to enjoy classical from pre 20th century periods. Nothing ever wrong with more music

    And it's not for lack of trying. I have a pretty large collection of: Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Etc, etc. And over the years, I have somewhat frequently spun various selections, to see if any of them will click. So far, no go.
    So now it’s okay for you to say that you don’t like composers like Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, but not OK for others to say they do not like the modern stuff?

  14. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    There are sections that remind of Mozart in Beethoven Op.18 No.5, Op.59 No.2, No.3, but on the whole, Beethoven was distinctively Beethovenian early on.

    "Stylistically Spohr's and Beethoven's development as composers took them in diametrically opposite directions. The op. 18 quartets are the point at which they were closest, but from there their paths diverged. Beethoven moved away from the chromaticism of late Mozart towards a broader harmonic style; it is significant that his only preserved comment about Spohr's music should have been 'He is too rich in dissonances; pleasure in his music marred by his chromatic melody.'"
    < Louis Spohr: A Critical Biography , By Clive Brown , Page 99 >

    I don't hear stuff like these in early Beethoven:

    [ 25:00 ]


    [ 7:30 ]
    But as I have already explained the Op 18 quartets were written when Beethoven was 30 and were not that early.

  15. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon View Post
    True.

    And as I said above, I wish I liked more pre 20th century and common practice music. I really wish I was one of those people that had a more balanced outlook toward classical music of all eras.

    That being said, I do like a lot of 20th century music that is not atonal. Bartok, Britten, Barber, Tower, Sibelius, and plenty more.

    And it's not like I have any real lack of composers and pieces to keep me plenty busy. It is actually hard to keep up with discovering new composers and pieces that astonish me. And lucky for me, I have a good friend (a Berklee grad and top LA studio musician) who's taste pretty much parallels mine, so he is constantly feeding me new stuff to listen to.
    My dear friend it’s great if you want to listen to a lot of this modern stuff as these people need people to listen to their music. Please enjoy yourself as much as you can

  16. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon View Post
    I'm with you on this.

    I can understand, to a certain extent, why some people don't appreciate modern and contemporary music.

    My problem is, that so many anti-modernists on TC, seem to think their opinions are objective fact. And in addition, the fact that those of us that like modern music are in the minority, does not provide one iota of evidence, that their opinions are objective fact.

    Music does not have to be obviously beautiful, to actually be beautiful. The beauty can be implied. Or it can come from the feelings it instills within us, as we listen (to music that may seem ugly on the surface), as it creates feelings of catharsis.

    When I listen to the music that most anti-modernists claim is superior (Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, Shostakovitch, Bach, et al.) I get bored to tears.
    Is your bordem due to your finding such music predictable?

  17. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    That's a shame - centuries of music down the drain.
    The same could be said for people who only listen to stuff written between 1600 and 1914. It might be only one century "down the drain", but it's the richest and most diverse of them all.

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  19. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
    The same could be said for people who only listen to stuff written between 1600 and 1914. It might be only one century "down the drain", but it's the richest and most diverse of them all.
    Who says we don’t listen to stuff post 1914? I don’t notice anyone saying that

  20. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Who says we don’t listen to stuff post 1914? I don’t notice anyone saying that
    I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, and it can be 1914 or 1939 or whatever. You guys never define or precise what you dislike so much anyway (it's music that is "series of unpleasant unrelated scrapings", good), so who gives a f***.
    Gosh, I don't want to enter a discussion with you or any of the anti-modernists. We know what you think. It's useless.
    Last edited by Kilgore Trout; Aug-14-2020 at 09:35.

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