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Need help understanding the neapolitan chord

18K views 123 replies 14 participants last post by  EdwardBast 
#1 · (Edited)
After trying to learn lots of harmony, the neapolitan chord is still confusing to me and I don't know how is one supposed to think about it? They way I see it it's not an altered chord, since you can't alter the fundamental itself. And it's not a scale degree. Is it a mixed chord or a superposition of two chords? The beginning of Mozart's Fantasia No. 4 in C Minor makes alot of sense for me, but need help explaining it.
 
#2 ·
The neapolitan chord is a major triad which, whether appearing in major or minor keys, has its root on the flattened 2nd scale degree. The "alteration" is the using of that altered scale degree as root. It has the same function as the II chord.

I don't think of it as a "chromatic" chord though, because I believe its origin to be historical, coming from the fact that in the Phrygian scale (the white notes on the piano beginning on E), the second scale degree is only a minor second higher than the tonic note (e.g. F above E). Mode V of the Christian church modes has the same structure as this Phrygian scale. Whether or not this historical account is true, certainly from the Renaissance this distinctive inflection which puts a major triad on the second scale degree is common. Most often the chord is used in first inversion.
 
#6 · (Edited)
The neapolitan chord is a major triad which, whether appearing in major or minor keys, has its root on the flattened 2nd scale degree. The "alteration" is the using of that altered scale degree as root. It has the same function as the II chord.
Your explanation feels right, but abtuse. Every video in youtube talks about what it's used for, but doesn't explain how it "is made".

I feel the neapolitan chord simply an issue of diminished chord on I. So to harmonically understand the neapolitan chord, one only needs to look at the diminished I chord, correct?
 
#4 · (Edited)
The use of the flatted second scale degree, with the major triad built on it, is common in the popular songs of the region of Naples, Italy (hence the name "Neapolitan"), whether the basic scale used is major or minor (these songs are frequently in major/minor, often having a verse in the minor and shifting to major for a refrain). If memory serves, the chord is generally used in cadences and usually resolves to the tonic. The flatted second scale degree is also heard in the flamenco music of Spain.

In common practice it's generally heard in first inversion and its function is nearest to that of ii, for which it may substitute.
 
#9 · (Edited)
...well yes, you can use the c dim triad to modulate to dflat as it can act as an incomplete dominant to the flattened supertonic, but that's a different thing altogether. The Neopolitan chord in its traditional use resolves into the home key. It does not become a prime functional chord that negates the home key as your example would tend to do. Its use is mostly cadential in common practice harmony.
 
#12 · (Edited)
You have to understand the Neapolitan chord in terms of root movement. Key of C, bII is Db major, going to V (G), to I (C). The Db to G is a tritone relation, related to diminished sevenths. The Db could also have been in a ii -V. So you need to understand this tritone relation, and how these possibilities are generated out of a diminished seventh chord with different roots under it, making it a dominant b9.
 
#16 · (Edited)
You have to understand the Neapolitan chord in terms of root movement. Key of C, bII is Db major, going to V (G), to I (C). The Db to G is a tritone relation, related to diminished sevenths. The Db could also have been in a ii -V. So you need to understand this tritone relation, and how these possibilities are generated out of a diminished seventh chord with different roots under it, making it a dominant b9.
This looks like a theoretical flight of fancy that explains nothing, and makes something simple seem complex.

"Related to"? "Tritone relation"? "These possibilities"? "Generated out of"? Making what a dominant b9?

What does it mean to say that the Neapolitan is "generated" out of a diminished seventh? How is a diminished seventh relevant at all? The Neapolitan is just a different form of a ii chord, imparting a different "color" to the music. So what if it's spelled like a Db major triad (in C major), and so what if the root of Db makes a tritone with G? That tritone isn't the "source" of the Neapolitan; a Neapolitan with root Db functions quite differently in a musical context from a diminished 7th containing a G and a Db; it certainly isn't "generated" out of it. If the Neapolitan was ever "generated" out of anything, it was the ordinary ii chord and the common musical function that chord performs.

What am I missing here? How is focusing on the tritone, and imagining diminished sevenths, more than a mental game? What does it tell us about the music in which the Neapolitan is used? (These are rhetorical questions. I believe the answers are "nothing," "it isn't," and "nothing.")
 
#14 ·
I think Vasks is right that it's a special chord, the clue being that the more traditional designation is N6, meaning that it's normal for the 3rd of the chord to be in the bass and doubled. And there's a good reason why the third is doubled: It's because the other tones have strong tendencies downward. To double either of them would necessitate one voice going against its natural tendency, resulting in awkward voice-leading. It's also special in that it nearly always occurs in a specific context, preceding the dominant (or the I6/4-dominant pair), which is what one would expect of an altered IV chord (Vasks) or an altered ii (Mike).

My explanation for the N6 chord's fame and special status is that it's a particularly sweet and exotic pre-dominant, a sound cherished for its special flavor

The chord has nothing whatever to do with diminished chords.
 
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#24 · (Edited)
Is this famous Rachmaninoff piece an example of a Neapolitan chord in a minor key?



 
#25 · (Edited)
Yes, Neopolitan harmony or chord. The difference between it and a CP N6 is the b sharp which is in effect a c natural, turning the chord into a dom7th. CP N6's do not normally have that degree in them at cadences for exam purposes. The chord is in 2nd inversion too which is not common for a traditional CP N6.
So, answer, yes Neopolitan harmony tinged with a bit of no if we are talking strict N6 I'd say. Good example of Neoploitan harmonies useage in normal play and not at cadential points.
 
#30 ·
Yes, I very much hear the neapolitan as being a dominant chord, if that's what you mean. That just reinforces what I said about the Neapolitan being a tritone substitution.
 
#35 · (Edited)
;1897068 said:
that's easy....your head has got in the way. I didn't say it was a substitute. But actually it is at cadential points. I explain it away because the composer was feeling exotic.
That's not an answer. Explain how a bII be a "substitute" for a II, unless you think you are exempt because 'you didn't say it was a substitute.'

WIK:
Harmonic function
In tonal harmony, the function of the Neapolitan chord is to prepare the dominant,
substituting for the IV or ii (particularly ii[SUP]6[/SUP]) chord.

Now I see true colors emerging. Music theorists here simply accept things as 'givens' without understanding any sort of underlying principles.

Understanding principles like this will be the way music theory is taught in the future, in the new paradigm. (see Schenker thread)
 
#40 ·
You can see nothing at all about 'true colours emerging', best not to make assumptions I'd say.
That's entirely up to you, in the way that you choose to answer questions; with reasoning or with pat answers.
 
#47 ·
The Neapolitan vs. tritone substitution refer to the different functions even if they incorporate similar notes. An analogy is different functions for the G chord in G major (I) and C major (V) respectively, which incorporate the same notes.
 
#48 · (Edited)
Analogies don't work for me. What functions in what keys are you specifically referring to?

Beethoven's use of it in the Apassionata sonata seems to be to be the most clear use.

The deviation from the diatonic scale (ii-V-I) to a chromatic alteration (bii-V-I) is why it is 'special case.'

It seems obvious to me that (key of C) the diminished seventh chord F-Ab-B-D can 'generate' dominant chords by simply placing different roots under it: E, Db, Bb, or G. The connection is G dominant 7.
Since it's used as a "pre-dominant" of V, the most obvious choice is Db, since it provides a nice leap of roots (Db-G-C).

Actually, this is a sort of "backwards" way of creating a tritone substitution; G7, the goal and diatonic within the key, is first seen as being derived from a diminished seventh "parent" chord, which then can give us E, Db, or Bb as our "pre-dominant" choices. So really, there are other possibilities, not just the bII degree.
 
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#49 ·
Million, you are again create more complex theory than what is going on in reality. There were various "Neapolitan/Phrygian" family motivic patterns employed back in the day (that got overused in opera, I guess). It's not hard to see how this became a kind of standard musical gesture. Btw, there was no tritone substitutions in non-12 equal music back in the day (this requires real tritones - like √ 2 tritone, not just enharmonic respelling).
About the importance of notation and spelling -> we also have talked about this many times - each equal temperament has infinite (but only few of them are simple) number of enharmonic equivalences. If you have consistent notation, you can translate the music to any more accurate tuning that supports the same temperament.
(Translating most of Beethoven's works to 12 equal is actually downgrading them, but that's another story.)
 
#50 ·
Secondary dominants are simple. V-I is simple.

What's complicated is saying "build a major chord on the bII degree as a substitute for ii-V," and not explaining it. It just is.

I disagree that "there were no tritone substitutions in non-12 equal music back in the day (this requires real tritones)", because of F of the C major scale, and the viiº degree. Tritones are inherent in the C major scale, regardless.
 
#66 ·
I'm often not sure where to draw the line between classical and jazz piano music. Sometimes when I'm listening to Brahms, I'll forget what it is and think for a few seconds that it's Bill Evans. And I know Bill Evans' music through and through, used to listen to him play live in Boston, have done many transcriptions, etc. Is it possible to develop a music theory system that does justice to both, and allows future musicians to more clearly understand the connections between them, on paper as easily as through the airwaves? Who knows. Maybe certain information just has to go straight from the pianist's inner ear to the listener's inner ear in order to be appreciated. Music theory is on some level, after all, an art form about an art form, and maybe there will always be something lost in the translation. Or maybe the problem just hasn't been solved yet.
 
#67 ·
In saying this, you represent the "new paradigm" of music theory of the future, which is inclusive of jazz ideas, and is not academically rigid. Congratulations. :lol:
 
#69 ·
I think that this argument could evolve into more of a discussion if certain stipulations were laid down as to the overall system one is talking about. Reading over the thread, I don't see where the table was properly set for what could actually be a pretty substantial back and forth, because I can see two sides to this coin fairly clearly, having been raised somewhat equally on classical and jazz harmony.

First I'd like to stipulate enharmonic equivalency for the purposes of this discussion, and 12-tone ET system (my rules for this post).

Next I'd like to stipulate that we are in the present tense--you can walk over to the piano and play the Moonlight or Brahms or Evans right now, and we aren't looking at history, we're listen to sounds, right now, at the piano. Okay, thanks.

There is a valid system behind what MR is saying, and it is the system I teach and developed over several decades. I believe it was first discovered by Erno Lendvai, who proported to find what he called the Axis system buried within Bartok and Kodaly's music. I'm not sure why it never took off--possibly because Lendvai developed a sort of "golden ratio fetish", and most of his book is (IMHO) wasted on some sacred geometry stuff that is, while interesting, more the stuff of stoned hippies listening to Debussy and seeing rainbows oozing from the speakers.

Getting back to the cool part of Lendvai's theory: Like Reimann, he assigns T, D, and S designations to the various diatonic chord degrees, but they are not all the same as Riemann's, and he assigns a T, S, or D designation to all 12 chromatic tones of the scale. He does away with mediant, submediant, supertonic, leading tone designations. Scale degrees I, bIII, bV, and VI are Tonic. Degrees IV, bVI, VII, and II are Subdominant. Degrees V, bVII, bII, and III are Dominant.

So to my point about setting the table, I think it's fair to say that within Lendvai's system MR has a point. I don't think he's made the point, but I think he has one, and is just not illuminating it very well. I have been guilty of the exact same thing many times--thinking that what I have written illustrates my point perfectly, only to read it over the next morning and go "what?".

So within the Axis system it is not only reasonable but absolutely correct to state that the N6 chord, being a bII, does indeed have a Dominant function, because that is merely stating the obvious--it's true by definition within the system. And it makes sense to jazz musicians who recognize the 4 ways that Dominant chords tend to resolve as being more equal. (Those 4 root motions being down P5 (authentic), down m2 (tritone sub), up M2 ("back door"), and down M3 (as illustrated by Schumann's Kinderscenen #1, bar 12, The Beatles "I Want To Hold You Hand", etc.).

So you're thinking "but it doesn't resolve to I, it resolves to V", and that is sometimes true, but N6 also quite often resolves to I6/4, in which case it makes perfect sense as a D to T progression (that then usually goes V : I, the more usual D to T progression.) What about the case where N6 resolves to V? We see it as a D to D tonality shift, but not a Functional shift.

There is a lot more to say about this system, but I will save it for another time.
 
#70 ·
So you're thinking "but it doesn't resolve to I, it resolves to V", and that is sometimes true, but N6 also quite often resolves to I6/4, in which case it makes perfect sense as a D to T progression (that then usually goes V : I, the more usual D to T progression.) What about the case where N6 resolves to V? We see it as a D to D tonality shift, but not a Functional shift.
Wrong on two counts. The I6/4 chord in these situations is not (or only rarely) tonic in function. It is generally a dominant with ongoing unresolved non-harmonic tones. You're confusing taxonomy with function. Where N6 resolves to V it is subdominant. The clue that it's a functional shift is the word resolve.
 
#71 ·
Edward,

The I6/4 chord may be said to "function" as a Tonic in many textbooks--we all know that, presumably. What I am stating is that in the Axis system we don't jump through hoops to explain why a I chord "functions" like a V chord. Rather, the sounds are judged at face value. A I chord functions as a I regardless of inversion. What if I said a I chord "functions" as a III because it's in 1st inversion? This is the sort of thing that the Axis system seeks to clarify. I'm not saying that it should be your or anybody's cup of tea, just explaining the system for those who may not be familiar with it.
 
#72 · (Edited)
I would expect Edward's answer to be something along the lines of "But we're not discussing axis theory."
 
#73 · (Edited)
My reason for bringing the axis system into this particular conversation was merely to try to rescue the thread from what seemed to me to be a less than meaningful discussion. I thought injecting some fresh ideas into the conversation would be a good thing, and as MR noted above, it is a "new paradigm". This does happen to be a theory which unifies classical and jazz functional harmonic thinking, for those who are looking for such a theory going forward. It doesn't negate other theories--they are after all only theories--but it is a very helpful theory in and of itself.

I am interested in hearing what Edward has to say, since he seems to have offered some very thoughtful perspectives in a number of threads. He may not have been aware that there is a system out there that does attempt to unify classical and jazz theory, when he made his statement above that they were two different things (paraphrasing). Or maybe he was aware--only he can tell us that.

For those interested in a further discussion of Neapolitan 6 chords, I started a new thread titled "Beethoven's Razumovski 3 Aug6 to N6 Magic Trick". It's cool how he used these chords as a sort of Swiss army knife to make his way through modulations to and from distant key areas.
 
#84 ·
Yes, and it looks like a million rainbows.
 
G
#81 · (Edited by Moderator)
The OP asked a simple question which was answered correctly and succinctly by Edward Bast back on page 1 (#14). The only thing lacking so far is to give a few notated examples showing how the chord is made and treated, plus a few examples from the repertoire.

Here is a PDF I made for my harmony students that offers a very simple summary (it's in French, you can Google translate it).

View attachment N6 presentation document.pdf
 
#85 · (Edited)
The OP asked a simple question which was answered correctly and succinctly by Edward Bast back on page 1 (#14). The only thing lacking so far is to give a few notated examples showing how the chord is made and treated, plus a few examples from the repertoire.

Here is a PDF I made for my harmony students that offers a very simple summary (it's in French, you can Google translate it).

View attachment 141708
TalkingHead,

Thanks for making available your PDF of your summary of typical Neapolitan chord usage. In your accompanying post you state that Edward Bast's post #14 answered the OP's "simple question" "correctly and succinctly", and that the only thing lacking was "a few notated examples". I agree, and your PDF summary does include some prime examples of the Neapolitan chord in typical use. I was happy to see that in fact your PDF also included two examples that are not covered by Edward Bast's post #14 (which Bast did not put forward as definitive, incidentally). These would be the examples where the Neapolitan chord resolves directly to a diminished chord. The resolution to a diminished chord from the Neapolitan chord was, in fact, one of Johann Sebastian Bach's typical chord progressions. (I am confining my current discussion to the direct resolution from N6 to target chord.) This resonated with something I was reading in an essay just yesterday:

I recommend that everyone read the 1939 essay by Emmett Lewis to which Woodduck provided a link in post #79, if you have not already done so. Here's the link again for your convenience:

http://hdl.handle.net/1802/8238

In reading the essay, it becomes clear that Bach had quite the affinity for the diminished chord following the Neapolitan chord, and there were at least two different diminished chords he preferred. Here are a few quotes from the Lewis essay, all of which refer to compositions by J.S. Bach:

p39) In the 371 Chorales, Bach used the Neapolitan sixth chord only once, in "Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieht darein"; Introducing a phrase, followed by a diminished seven chord…
p40) From the Eb Minor Prelude of The Well Tempered Clavier, Vol. 1, there is another example of the Neapolitan as an altered second class chord...Again the diminished seven chord in arpeggio form follows the Neapolitan.

p40) (with respect to the Bach Gesellschaft) The Prelude in C# Minor contains a Neapolitan, again followed by a diminished chord...

p42) Later, in the same work, a Neapolitan over a pedal-point appears in preparation for a cadence, followed by the favored diminished seventh chord...

pp42-43) A most effective Neapolitan sixth chord appears in No. 33, near the end of the chorus, "Christ is Bound and Led into the City". As this chord is extended over the measure, it is quite intense. The diminished seventh chord follows the Neapolitan before the cadence chords appear.

p45) (with respect to St. John Passion) In the Largo of the same sonata, there is a very straightforward use of the Neapolitan, preceded by the subdominant and followed by his (Bach's) favorite chord, the diminished seventh...

p45) A dominant 9th chord precedes the Neapolitan, and a diminished seventh chord follows it in the flute sonata #5.
The only reasonable take-away from Lewis's extensive research in this narrow field of study is that the Neapolitan chord resolving to a diminished chord is one of Bach's favored chord progressions. Lewis even points out one example that fails to go to a diminished chord as if it were an oddity:

p43) In the Evangelist's recitative, No. 30, somewhat the same arrangement is found, with the exception that the diminished seventh chord is omitted.
So much for the Neapolitan chord having nothing whatsoever to do with diminished chords. I understand that may not be exactly how Bast meant it at the time, but as it stands that statement in such a definitive form in his original post could be confusing to the uninitiated or to Bach lovers, IMHO.

From here I would suggest that readers download the file and decide for themselves what's in it. I thought it held a wealth of information that raised many questions, rather than providing pat answers. I even found the possible origins of one of Beethoven's uses of the Neapolitan chord in the Moonlight, which I will share about in another post. It was a great read and I appreciate Woodduck posting it.

 
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#86 · (Edited)
Wes Lachot said:
[...] I was happy to see that in fact your PDF also included two examples that are not covered by Edward Bast's post #14 (which Bast did not put forward as definitive, incidentally). These would be the examples where the Neapolitan chord resolves directly to a diminished chord. The resolution to a diminished chord from the Neapolitan chord was, in fact, one of Johann Sebastian Bach's typical chord progressions. [...]
Thank you for your reply and link to the Lewis dissertation.

I wouldn't say that the N6 resolves to a diminished chord; rather, the N6 moves onto a diminished chord and then finds its resolution on the V chord that follows. The diminshed chord (vii°/V) that is interposed beween the N6 (bII6) and the dominant (V) is simply a passing chord.

As to the origins of the N6 and further examples from the repertoire, please see the two PDFs which I have attached here:

View attachment N6 examples (p1).pdf
View attachment N6 examples (p2).pdf
 
#88 · (Edited)
Thank you for your reply and link to the Lewis dissertation.

I wouldn't say that the N6 resolves to a diminished chord; rather, the N6 moves onto a diminished chord and then finds its resolution on the V chord that follows. The diminshed chord (vii°/V) that is interposed beween the N6 (bII6) and the dominant (V) is simply a passing chord.

As to the origins of the N6 and further examples from the repertoire, please see the two PDFs which I have attached here:

View attachment 141758
View attachment 141759
Thanks for providing more info on Neapolitan chord uses for the group.

As for my choice of the word "resolves", you can just use the words "proceeds to", because this is not about the semantics of that word, which I tried to make clear in my post by specifying "I am confining my current discussion to the direct resolution from N6 to target chord". The reason for keeping the discussion narrower is that what I see on this forum is a lot of people talking past each other and ending up in flame wars either because there is a imbalance of knowledge, but also, just as crucially, because the terms of debate were never laid down clearly. I am trying to avoid that second pitfall by defining a more narrow, digestible topic for discussion, at least for my posts. I am happy to broaden out the discussion at a later time, after the real points in my post above have been addressed and commented on.

So I am interested to hear what you and others have to say about the actual meat of my post.
 
#87 ·
Pardon me, I must have stumbled into the Music History thread. :lol:
 
#97 · (Edited)
In an abstract sense, I have an inordinate fondness for the "French" augmented sixth chord, for so many reasons, including that there are only six distinct transpositions in terms of pitch class.
That sounds awfully diminished-y to me.

"What's a pitch-class?"
 
#98 · (Edited)
Pitch-class is a term, favored by set theorists, referring to all the instances of a particular note in any octave considered collectively (as a class), rather than to any particular pitch as designated by a frequency (or an Acoustic Society of America number designation.) So a particular individual pitch might be described as A 440 or as A4. If one refers to the pitch class A, however, one means any and all As, as in, for example, all eight on a standard piano keyboard or all the musically useful As within the range of human hearing.
 
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