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Thread: Was Wagner religious?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerWaters View Post
    Life-denying decadence; a sure sign of physiological weariness! Why not just end it all, or, what's equivalent, become a buddhist?!
    It's all about reason being above will and will above desire. I'm not talking about asceticism but about reason, read the full reply.

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    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    The problem is that he was an extremist, so his journey to morality convinced a lot of people half way to do bad things, and his resolution Parsifal had almost no effect. He's like a reverse Beethoven.
    Wagner was an intense, flawed, brilliant, driven human being who created multi-faceted works, pregnant with symbolism, that express a wide spectrum of human experience and motivation. People can read his works selectively and find a variety of meanings in them, both overt and implicit. The idea that these works have "convinced" anyone to "do bad things" is one you're going to have to give better evidence of than you have so far. I feel safe in saying that any scoundrel who happens to enjoy Wagner is going to be a scoundrel with or without him. An accurate understanding of his works undermines any notion of the will to power, but this is readily apparent even at a superficial reading of them. Long before Parsifal assumes the responsibilities of manhood, the love of Elisabeth for Tannhauser rebukes the cruelty of the Pope, Hans Sachs undercuts hypocrisy and selfishness and reconciles passion with social responsibility, greed and envy bring destruction, and the power of the gods goes up in flames.

    There is real nobility to be found in Wagner's stories, a yearning idealism, and a sympathy for all flawed human creatures, even his villains. His works tackle in the most earnest way themes of love, loyalty, betrayal, death, and the search for redemption. I don't think any other opera composer approaches him in seriousness of purpose or depth of thought. I've known his operas for over 50 years and cannot imagine being "convinced to do bad things" by any of them. The idea that experiencing the agony and ecstasy of Tristan and isolde would encourage impressionable folk to run around cheating on their spouses is really quite comical. I should think it would make them all the more grateful for Opie, Aunt Bee, and their white picket fence in Mayberry.
    Last edited by Woodduck; Aug-14-2020 at 09:38.

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  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    It's all about reason being above will and will above desire. I'm not talking about asceticism but about reason, read the full reply.
    I was joking. Going full Nietzsche to your full 'logocentrism'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerWaters View Post
    Life-denying decadence; a sure sign of physiological weariness! Why not just end it all, or, what's equivalent, become a buddhist?!
    Or find a wife and be happily married with wonderful companionship for 50 years!

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  7. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Wagner was an intense, flawed, brilliant, driven human being who created multi-faceted works, pregnant with symbolism, that express a wide spectrum of human experience and motivation. People can read his works selectively and find a variety of meanings in them, both overt and implicit. The idea that these works have "convinced" anyone to "do bad things" is one you're going to have to give better evidence of than you have so far. I feel safe in saying that any scoundrel who happens to enjoy Wagner is going to be a scoundrel with or without him. An accurate understanding of his works undermines any notion of the will to power, and this is readily apparent even at a superficial reading of them. Long before Parsifal assumes the responsibilities of manhood, the love of Elisabeth for Tannhauser rebukes the cruelty of the Pope, Hans Sachs undercuts hypocrisy and selfishness and reconciles passion with social responsibility, greed and envy bring destruction, and the power of the gods goes up in flames.

    There is real nobility to be found in Wagner's stories, a searching idealism, and a sympathy for all flawed human creatures, even his villains. His works tackle in the most earnest way themes of love, loyalty, betrayal, death, and the search for redemption. I don't think any other opera composer approaches him in seriousness of purpose or depth of thought. I've known his operas for over 50 years and cannot imagine being "convinced to do bad things" by any of them. The idea that experiencing the agony and ecstasy of Tristan and isolde would encourage impressionable folk to run around cheating on their spouses is really quite comical. I should think it would make them all the more grateful for Opie, Aunt Bee, and their white picket fence in Mayberry.
    Now the effects are not as strong thanks to postmodernism and deconstructionism, but back then Tristan was an abomination, just look at how crazy Nietzsche went because of it, the man went as far as giving himself syphilis on purpose. People did not take the opera well, back then everyone took their lives and their morals very seriously, they didn't know what we do now.

    The fact that Wagner had to write Tristan to morally allow himself to have those affairs speaks to how restrictive it was back then. Today people do immoral things like they're going to the park for a walk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    just look at how crazy Nietzsche went because of it, the man went as far as giving himself syphilis on purpose...
    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    The fact that Wagner had to write Tristan to morally allow himself to have those affairs...
    You are so full of **** it's not funny!

    You must be trolling now, surely??
    Last edited by RogerWaters; Aug-14-2020 at 08:07.

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    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    Well yes, if I see a pretty girl winking at me I’ll very likely not move on it. If that’s not maturity in the face of a cheap thrill then what is?
    It might also be passing up a chance at a great relationship, or even a non-cheap and pleasant evening out.

    Funny, but I never considered myself "mature" just for not humping everybody in sight.

  11. #83
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    Now the effects are not as strong thanks to postmodernism and deconstructionism, but back then Tristan was an abomination, just look at how crazy Nietzsche went because of it, the man went as far as giving himself syphilis on purpose. People did not take the opera well, back then everyone took their lives and their morals very seriously, they didn't know what we do now.

    The fact that Wagner had to write Tristan to morally allow himself to have those affairs speaks to how restrictive it was back then. Today people do immoral things like they're going to the park for a walk.
    The effects of listening to Wagner are not as strong now because of deconstructionism?????


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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    It might also be passing up a chance at a great relationship, or even a non-cheap and pleasant evening out.

    Funny, but I never considered myself "mature" just for not humping everybody in sight.
    You can tell Wagner that when you meet him. I can see through Wagner's lust precisely because of the similar will, even though mine is firmly under reason, it's a powerful one.
    Last edited by 1996D; Aug-14-2020 at 08:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    The effects of listening to Wagner are not as strong now because of deconstructionism?????

    The society the whole postmodern movement created allows for extraordinary sexual license, so much that women had to start their metoo movement.

    You’re just a little out of touch with today, which is normal for a man in his 70s.
    Last edited by 1996D; Aug-14-2020 at 08:16.

  14. #86
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    How about actually dealing with the substance of the works of this composer you despise. Mr.1996D? I did put a certain amount of effort into post #77, and made some specific points. Is continuing to offer generalized sermons about the downfall of morality, harping on Wagner's affairs, and contrasting them with your own "maturity" the best you can do?

    I think you see every subject on the forum as little more than an opportunity to preach. It has an air of showoffishness that doesn't exude "maturity."

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  16. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerWaters View Post
    You are so full of **** it's not funny!

    You must be trolling now, surely??
    There is a playfulness to all this but it's true. They were very different times that's why it all seems so hard to believe.

    It's Thomas Mann that made that claim and Freddy was certainly crazy enough to do it, Derrida proves that much in his deconstruction of him.
    Last edited by 1996D; Aug-14-2020 at 08:32.

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    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1996D View Post
    You’re just a little out of touch with today, which is normal for a man in his 70s.
    One thing I'm glad to be out of touch with is the impertinent arrogance of 24-year-olds. You'd do better to take some of those winking young ladies up on their offers. Getting laughed at in bed a few times can cut a young pseudo-intellectual down to size.

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  19. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    How about actually dealing with the substance of the works of this composer you despise. Mr.1996D? I did put a certain amount of effort into post #77, and made some specific points. Is continuing to offer generalized sermons about the downfall of morality, harping on Wagner's affairs, and contrasting them with your own "maturity" the best you can do?

    I think you see every subject on the forum as little more than an opportunity to preach. It has an air of showoffishness that doesn't exude "maturity."
    It's all in good fun, I certainly don't hate Wagner but embracing the deconstructionism that we have full license to use today, and honestly if Wagner gets banned it would put a smile on my face, he's already banned in Israel and today statues are falling like flies so it's possible. If the virus lasts a long time I might write a few books under a pseudonym.
    Last edited by 1996D; Aug-14-2020 at 08:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    One thing I'm glad to be out of touch with is the impertinent arrogance of 24-year-olds. You'd do better to take some of those winking young ladies up on their offers. Getting laughed at in bed a few times can cut a young pseudo-intellectual down to size.
    I'm being so polite to you, I know you're easily offended, but man do you beg to get trolled, it's like you enjoy it.

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