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Thread: Is it possible to be in a close relationship with our political opposites?

  1. #136
    Senior Member Flamme's Avatar
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    I see too many filthy and decaying spirits around me...Maybe that guy on the ice purified himself...Maybe not...I live in a country that conducted aggression against its neighbors in 90s and got punished severely...Now its in process of dissolution, with ''gods help'' very soon...But people have become basically (ro)bots of the ruling party and a mafia type para-state structure...Thus it is hard to find the third kind of people, between 2, the hypnotized slaves of the system, the people hopelessly in love with false and intoxicating past, that caused all the wars...I live in a northern part of the country which was once part of the civilized Austrian empire but since it under ''serbia'' it is going down at unprecedented rate! Tbh I dont know why the EU is still tolerating the mere existence of a spreader of wars and chaotic destruction!!! anyway the point is I kinda isolated myself from most of the people and am careful what I talk about in any company, because everything is all full of spies and sleazy people! It is kind of a''schadenfreude'' for me to see the total defeat and breaking apart of ''greater serbia'' dream but I dont wanna get hurt by the falling masonry!!!
    'Listen, Mister god!
    Isn't it boring
    to dip your puffy eyes,
    every day, into a jelly of clouds?'

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  3. #137
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varick View Post
    So by that measure, Bill Clinton has great character. He certainly governed well. I guess that also means that Jimmy Carter had horrible character. He certainly didn't govern well.

    I could go on and on with example after example of how one has absolutely NOTHING to do with the other.

    V
    The job's too big for anyone. We need a team of experts running things.
    Albert Einstein, "I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music.

  4. #138
    Senior Member Jacck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamme View Post
    I see too many filthy and decaying spirits around me...Maybe that guy on the ice purified himself...Maybe not...I live in a country that conducted aggression against its neighbors in 90s and got punished severely...Now its in process of dissolution, with ''gods help'' very soon...But people have become basically (ro)bots of the ruling party and a mafia type para-state structure...Thus it is hard to find the third kind of people, between 2, the hypnotized slaves of the system, the people hopelessly in love with false and intoxicating past, that caused all the wars...I live in a northern part of the country which was once part of the civilized Austrian empire but since it under ''serbia'' it is going down at unprecedented rate! Tbh I dont know why the EU is still tolerating the mere existence of a spreader of wars and chaotic destruction!!! anyway the point is I kinda isolated myself from most of the people and am careful what I talk about in any company, because everything is all full of spies and sleazy people! It is kind of a''schadenfreude'' for me to see the total defeat and breaking apart of ''greater serbia'' dream but I dont wanna get hurt by the falling masonry!!!
    the rot infecting much of the post-communist countries comes from Russia. And Serbia is very much considered to be a very close ally of Russia. It took the western democratic societies centuries to build their institutions and culture (just remember all those revolutions to depose the corrupt nobility). It was unreasonable to expect, that in the 1990's Russia would change overnight and become a democratic society (just like it was naive to expect that from Iraq). But there is hope. More and more countries are protesting. Ukraine already freed itself. There are protests in Belarus etc. Improving the situation will take generations, and it cannot be done fast. The progress seems slow in countries like Hungary and Poland or the Balkans, but I am sure the situation will improve and all the countries will join the European Union and become democratic, and that Russia will likely dissolve and slowly become democratic too. I dont hate Russia or the Russian people. I feel deeply sorry for them and the system they have to live in.

    I just rewatched the amazing movie Durak, that is a brilliant metaphor for current Russia and any country similar to Russia
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3560686/

    the problem is not one corrupt leader, the problem is the whole corrupt system. The corruption is so ingrained in the mentality of the people. And the mentality cannot be changed overnight by any revolution. It can only change gradually over generations, ie decades. So dont lose hope over Serbia, just dont expect changes fast.

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  6. #139
    Senior Member Flamme's Avatar
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    Serbia is totally rotten...The western part of serbia until belgrade and border of river sava once was part of hungarian kingdom in Austrohungarian monarchy and a part of Independent State Of Croatia in WW2...I would support even Croatia coming back here it is so dire...
    'Listen, Mister god!
    Isn't it boring
    to dip your puffy eyes,
    every day, into a jelly of clouds?'

  7. #140
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varick View Post
    So by that measure, Bill Clinton has great character. He certainly governed well. I guess that also means that Jimmy Carter had horrible character. He certainly didn't govern well.

    I could go on and on with example after example of how one has absolutely NOTHING to do with the other.

    V
    Please do! I found your examples so far, "interesting". And indeed windows into character, as they both, intermittently to be sure, governed well. We can discuss this at length, broadening it to include Donald J. Trump and Mitch McConnell, down in the Political Groups where such discussions belong.

  8. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    The job's too big for anyone. We need a team of experts running things.
    The last thing you want is "experts". They run things in the interests of "experts".

  9. #142
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Al View Post
    The last thing you want is "experts". They run things in the interests of "experts".
    I know that that's the deeply in-grained attitude.

    It will also be the doom of humankind. 'Just think about what you're saying.
    Albert Einstein, "I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music.

  10. #143
    Senior Member Dan Ante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    I know that that's the deeply in-grained attitude.

    It will also be the doom of humankind. 'Just think about what you're saying.
    He is right as I have posted many times
    The definition of Expert = X is an unknown property and spurt is a drip under pressure.
    "Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.

  11. #144
    Senior Member Flamme's Avatar
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    When I analyze my partners throughout the years I see some liberal, more conservative, but mostly confused and un(in)formed politically...Like most ppl really are. Ppl just turn how wind blows...
    'Listen, Mister god!
    Isn't it boring
    to dip your puffy eyes,
    every day, into a jelly of clouds?'

  12. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    I know that that's the deeply in-grained attitude.

    It will also be the doom of humankind. 'Just think about what you're saying.
    I have thought about this quite a lot - and the more I think about it the more I am convinced. Experts are idiots.
    Of course, I'm quite expert myself (1st from Oxford, professional qualifications, all that stuff), so it follows that I am an idiot too. At least I know it, though.
    I believe in the wisdom of crowds.

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  14. #146
    Senior Member Varick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    I know that that's the deeply in-grained attitude.

    It will also be the doom of humankind. 'Just think about what you're saying.
    This reverence towards "experts" will certainly be the doom of humankind. "Experts" have expertise in a certain field or subject. They have information that can be helpful and maybe even crucial to understand something. It does not mean they have wisdom when it comes to applying their expertise to policy. If that's the case, then only Generals and Admirals should decide whether or not to use the military. After all, they are "experts" in military matters. We don't do that. We have civilians and representatives who use the military "experts" for information so that they may make an informed decision.

    Strange how we have a massive increase in child rearing "experts" in the past 4-5 decades, yet in that same amount of time we have children who are more unruly, have more problems following basic healthy behaviors and many more issues.

    Strange how we have a massive increase in mental health "experts" (councilors, psychologists, therapists, etc) yet our use of anti-depressants are through the roof (USA consumes approx 80% of all anti depressants made in the world), and we have MORE mental health issues than ever before per capita. These "experts" have policy over local, state, and federal gov't guidelines when it comes to public assistance, education, and workplace policy.

    Those are just a few examples of how having "experts" create policy is often a bad idea. Nothing brought this home more than when I was listening to an interview with a Fire Marshall decades ago. He said that all public schools classroom doors should be closed during all classes in case there is a fire. Basically, he advocated for children to be in sweltering hot rooms in hot weather with no cross ventilation in the infinitesimal chance there be a fire (I believe the last person to die in a public school fire in the US was somewhere back in the 1950's).

    This Fire Marshall has forgotten what I will ever know about fire. It didn't prevent him from being a complete fool when it came to making policy of whether or not classrooms doors should be open or closed.

    Experts are great for information. They are no more or less wise than any mechanic, doctor, plumber, scientist, teacher, etc. Some experts have wisdom, some are wisdom-less. I don't care what area of "expertise" they may have, I don't want them making policy.

    V

    PS: This is a great book that illustrates my point: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....4,203,200_.jpg
    Last edited by Varick; Oct-27-2020 at 22:49.
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

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  16. #147
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Al View Post
    I have thought about this quite a lot - and the more I think about it the more I am convinced. Experts are idiots.
    Of course, I'm quite expert myself (1st from Oxford, professional qualifications, all that stuff), so it follows that I am an idiot too. At least I know it, though.
    I believe in the wisdom of crowds.
    I think perhaps a crowd of experts.
    Albert Einstein, "I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music.

  17. #148
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varick View Post
    This reverence towards "experts" will certainly be the doom of humankind. "Experts" have expertise in a cRE mental health issues than ever before per capita. These "experts" have policy over local, state, and federal gov't guidelines when it comes to public assistance, education, and workplace policy.

    Those are just a few examples of how having "experts" create policy is often a bad idea. Nothing brought this home more than when I was listening to an interview with a Fire Marshall decades ago. He said that all public schools classroom doors should be closed during all classes in case there is a fire. Basically, he advocated for children to be in sweltering hot rooms in hot weather with no cross ventilation in the infinitesimal chance there be a fire (I believe the last person to die in a public school fire in the US was somewhere back in the 1950's).

    This Fire Marshall has forgotten what I will ever know about fire. It didn't prevent him from being a complete fool when it came to making policy of whether or not classrooms doors should be open or closed.

    Experts are great for information. They are no more or less wise than any mechanic, doctor, plumber, scientist, teacher, etc. Some experts have wisdom, some are wisdom-less. I don't care what area of "expertise" they may have, I don't want them making policy.

    V

    PS: This is a great book that illustrates my point: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....4,203,200_.jpg


    There's jerks everywhere. Look at all the obvious jerks in politics.
    Albert Einstein, "I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music.

  18. #149
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    When sick, I go to the doctor. If I need legal advice, I see a lawyer. I certainly go to the dentist when I get a toothache. One of the complaints of conservatives is that the wisdom of the educated, the experienced, the thoughtful, the Wise is too often ignored by the Mob. De Tocqueville observed this phenomenon among Americans more than a century and half ago. Legions of scientists, plus my own observation and readings tell me our planet is in terrible danger, but maybe I should instead listen to the wisdom of the crowd, though I suppose it depends on which crowd.

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  20. #150
    Senior Member Varick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    When sick, I go to the doctor. If I need legal advice, I see a lawyer. I certainly go to the dentist when I get a toothache.
    I go to all those experts as well when those situations arise. I want their expertise on specific issues. I don't necessarily trust them making grand sweeping policies for society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    One of the complaints of conservatives is that the wisdom of the educated, the experienced, the thoughtful, the Wise is too often ignored by the Mob.
    Experience I trust, thoughtful I trust, wise I certainly trust. The "educated" I no longer trust. They have proven over the past number of decades that although they may be well educated, they have little to no experience, they are the last thing from "thoughtful" and they certainly have very little to no wisdom. If you want to see a wisdom free zone, visit almost any college or university in the US now. Are there exceptions? Of course. There are always exceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    De Tocqueville observed this phenomenon among Americans more than a century and half ago. Legions of scientists, plus my own observation and readings tell me our planet is in terrible danger, but maybe I should instead listen to the wisdom of the crowd, though I suppose it depends on which crowd.
    It most certainly does.

    V
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

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