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Thread: Is it possible to be in a close relationship with our political opposites?

  1. #196
    Senior Member Varick's Avatar
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    I'm pretty politically informed but I still have no idea what this QAnon thing is. I suspect (and I may be wrong) that it is another Left strawman like all these white supremacists and neo nazis we apparently have running all around the US. Funny, I'm a white guy and have traveled all over the US. I saw some white supremacist/neo nazis once in my life and it was only because I happened to stop by a road side convenience store in the middle of nowhere in Western PA years & years ago. I've never personally met one in all my travels. And if there was ever someone who "looked like" he could be one, it's me: White, blue eyes, shaved head, with a goatee. I could look like the poster boy to these scumbags. And yet... never met one.

    I have a feeling (again, I could be wrong) that this QAnon thing is similar. Much ado about nothing. I hear about the Proud Boys and how they are a racist group. I did some (barely) surface inquiry into them and found that 20% of them are black and they have a good number of hispanics in there as well and I believe either the founder or head of the Proud Boys is black. Wow, that must be some kind of racist organization that tolerates and allows other races in their ranks.

    I have asked multiple conservative friends of mine and no one seems to know about QAnon. But it's all I hear about from the left. And they talk about how QAnon COULD be violent. Meanwhile, we have had MONTHS & MONTHS of violence all over our country and ALL of it is from the left, but that hardly gets a mention. There MIGHT be this "Alt-Right" group (that again, no one I know on the right knows anything about) that MIGHT become violent and it's "STOP THE PRESS!!!!!" Without these lies to feed off of, the left dies. Not liberals, but the left.

    V
    Last edited by Varick; Oct-29-2020 at 00:03.
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

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  3. #197
    Senior Member Jacck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christabel View Post
    Mate, that comment is so undergrad. Do some reading on this topic from really intelligent people and you'll learn. But I have the feeling you don't want to hear anything that clashes with your 'truth'. Again, another reason why polar opposites cannot be friends anymore.
    like here?
    How everything became the culture war

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacck View Post
    You could try reading Steven Pinker, Douglas Murray and others; they've written LONG books about the topic - as have others. But only if you want to learn something, of course.

  5. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varick View Post
    I'm pretty politically informed but I still have no idea what this QAnon thing is. I suspect (and I may be wrong) that it is another Left strawman like all these white supremacists and neo nazis we apparently have running all around the US. Funny, I'm a white guy and have traveled all over the US. I saw some white supremacist/neo nazis once in my life and it was only because I happened to stop by a road side convenience store in the middle of nowhere in Western PA years & years ago. I've never personally met one in all my travels. And if there was ever someone who "looked like" he could be one, it's me: White, blue eyes, shaved head, with a goatee. I could look like the poster boy to these scumbags. And yet... never met one.

    I have a feeling (again, I could be wrong) that this QAnon thing is similar. Much ado about nothing. I hear about the Proud Boys and how they are a racist group. I did some (barely) surface inquiry into them and found that 20% of them are black and they have a good number of hispanics in there as well and I believe either the founder or head of the Proud Boys is black. Wow, that must be some kind of racist organization that tolerates and allows other races in their ranks.

    I have asked multiple conservative friends of mine and no one seems to know about QAnon. But it's all I hear about from the left. And they talk about how QAnon COULD be violent. Meanwhile, we have had MONTHS & MONTHS of violence all over our country and ALL of it is from the left, but that hardly gets a mention. There MIGHT be this "Alt-Right" group (that again, no one I know on the right knows anything about) that MIGHT become violent and it's "STOP THE PRESS!!!!!" Without these lies to feed off of, the left dies. Not liberals, but the left.

    V
    There's an old saying in psychology; when somebody is accusing you they're really telling you all about themselves!! I must say no kind of extremist talk would ever come into conversations with people I know; they understand, as I do, that polar extremes eventually cancel themselves out by squeezing the majority back into the centre. A kind of gravity, if you will. The kind of arguments that are likely to create divisions are of the type mentioned a few comments back about the 'trickle down' economy, culture wars, feminism - but these are unlikely to occur in any interactions I have anyway. When you get to a certain stage in your life (cough) you are more concerned about social stability and cohesion, stable economies which can thrive, employment and freedom of speech.
    Last edited by Christabel; Oct-29-2020 at 00:43.

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  7. #200
    Senior Member Open Book's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacck View Post
    There is difference of education. I am an M.D., my cousin was a waiter. He makes a living in the US reconstructing houses, he has some small company. He is definitely not doing that great, because his family (my uncle) had to send him some money. In those 30 years, he has been back here just 3 times. The reason why I think the average Czech is doing better than the average American is the social safety net - free healthcare, free education, 2 years of paid maternal leave, 5 weeks of fully paid holidays, pension system etc. There is also much less social inequality here than in the US. Look at this map
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y-adjusted_HDI
    Czech Republic is more developed than the US according to this
    The Czech doctors are not as highly paid as the US doctors. The basic salary in a hospital (ie for 40 hours) is just maybe twice the average salary (but of course most hospital doctors work 60-70 hours), while the US doctors are making maybe 10 times the average. But at least we dont have to deal with high costs of insurace because of a culture of litigation and moral injury
    https://lissarankin.com/doctors-are-...-the-solution/
    I like hearing what Europeans have to say about their part of the world.

    There's no doubt about the appeal of a safety net. If you have your your health you have almost everything. It's hard to deny people health care any more than you could deny them food. But it costs and someone has to pay for it.

    Are there very rich people in your country who escape paying taxes like in the U.S.? Isn't it the upper middle class like doctors who have suffered most from having to finance the safety net? In the U.S. it is feared that the upper middle class who are not millionaires (or at least not multi-millionaires) would bear the brunt of financing universal health care if we ever get it. The very rich will not pay.

    Everyone wants to get more but no one wants to risk giving up what they have.

    Just wondering, do doctors in your country buy their own private malpractice insurance under your system?
    Last edited by Open Book; Oct-29-2020 at 05:20.
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  8. #201
    Senior Member Jacck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Open Book View Post
    I like hearing what Europeans have to say about their part of the world.
    There's no doubt about the appeal of a safety net. If you have your your health you have almost everything. It's hard to deny people health care any more than you could deny them food. But it costs and someone has to pay for it.
    Are there very rich people in your country who escape paying taxes like in the U.S.? Isn't it the upper middle class like doctors who have suffered most from having to finance the safety net? In the U.S. it is feared that the upper middle class who are not millionaires (or at least not multi-millionaires) would bear the brunt of financing universal health care if we ever get it. The very rich will not pay.
    the taxes would have to go up. Most people in Europe pay several hundred euros a month to finance this safety net, and those who earn more pay more, so you end up with 40% of your salary going to taxes and the upper middle class pays the most. Yes, the rich try to avoid paying and try to move their companies to various offshore tax havens. But if there was an actual political will to make them pay their fair share, it could be done. Unfortunately they use their riches to corrupt the political class to skew the system. One of the reasons why the rich in the UK supported brexit was that the EU wanted to regulate the tax havens. So they teamed up with the Russians.
    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...itories/30/05/

    Just wondering, do doctors in your country buy their own private malpractice insurance under your system?
    if you work in a hospital, your dont have to worry about it, because the hospital is insured for malpractice. If you are private, you have to negotiate your own insurance with an insurance company.

  9. #202
    Senior Member Dan Ante's Avatar
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    I will tell you of my experience with private health insurance, at the age of approx 34-5 I took advantage of a special deal only to find out as the years passed that various things were taken off the list of covered items e.g Dental work was the first that I remember then bit by bit as the years past the ins cover was re written and all ways in favor of the ins co, when I needed to get my hearing checked over ( I lost hearing in one Ear) I was told that it was not covered, Funeral ins stops when you reach 80. So getting fed up with the Ins Co I cancelled, and am saving over NZ$700/mth which pays for an odd job man to do some jobs that I can no longer do.
    "Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.

  10. #203
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Our friend Varick does not read much, one might deduce: From the Philadelphia Inquirer.,,,,

    "Last week, the U.S. House of Representatives voted to condemn the online conspiracy movement QAnon. It should have been an easy vote considering that the FBI has labeled QAnon a domestic terrorist threat. And for the majority of the 435 House members, it was. But troublingly, 18 representatives voted against the resolution. More concerning: Two of the 17 Republican “nay” votes came from Pennsylvania.

    Rep. Scott Perry, from south-central Pennsylvania, and Rep. Mike Kelly, from northwest Pennsylvania, voted no on a resolution that “condemns QAnon and rejects the conspiracy theories it promotes.” Perry did not respond to a request for comment, but Kelly explained in an email to this board: “Congress need not spend its time condemning Americans for speech it doesn’t like.” Last year, both Kelly and Perry voted in favor of a resolution condemning anti-Semitic speech that came in response to comments by Rep. Ilhan Omar of Minnesota."

    The Trump Administration's FBI has been issuing warnings about the domestic terror threat posed primarily by Right organizations, "militias", etc. for months, seemingly unread by either the president or Varick. Meanwhile the sale of guns and ammunition continues to soar here in the good old USA, while Vladimir Putin smiles...

  11. #204
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    FBI Chief Wray on the Boogaloo phenomenon, another movement Varick is not well-informed about, it seems.....

    "Boogaloos is considered a right-leaning, anti-government movement that started online and reportedly has connections to white supremacy and advocating for a second civil war. Wray said Boogaloos, like Antifa, is more of a movement or an ideology than a group itself.

    Self-identifying members of Boogaloos have been charged in connection with the shooting death of a federal agent in California, as well as providing support from Minnesota to Hamas, a militant Islamic Palestinian nationalist movement, lawmakers and Wray said.

    “I think one of the things that a lot of people don't understand about people who subscribe to this sort of Boogaloo thinking is that their main focus is just dismantling, tearing down government, and they're less clear on what it is they think they're going to replace government with,” Wray said. “I'm not even sure they would all agree with each other.”

    Foreign adversaries including China and Russia have tried to “sort of piggyback on a lot of the unrest activity that has been occurring,” Wray said.

    Wray said he expressed concerns about misinformation on social media about the infectiousness of the coronavirus or about treatments, cures or vaccines, but that the FBI isn’t the “truth police.”

  12. #205
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    And now a little FBI something about The Proud Boys.....

    "The FBI now classifies the far-right Proud Boys as an “extremist group with ties to white nationalism”, according to a document produced by Washington state law enforcement.

    The FBI’s 2018 designation of the self-confessed “western chauvinist group” as extremist has not been previously made public.

    Who are the Proud Boys, 'western chauvinists' involved in political violence?

    The Proud Boys was founded by the Vice Media co-founder Gavin McInnes. McInnes has insisted that his group is not white nationalist or “alt-right” but the Proud Boys have a history of misogyny and glorifying violence. The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) lists them as a hate group.

    The document also says: “The FBI has warned local law enforcement agencies that the Proud Boys are actively recruiting in the Pacific north-west”, and: “Proud Boys members have contributed to the recent escalation of violence at political rallies held on college campuses, and in cities like Charlottesville, Virginia, Portland, Oregon, and Seattle, Washington.”

  13. #206
    Senior Member Chilham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varick View Post
    I'm pretty politically informed but I still have no idea what this QAnon thing is. I suspect (and I may be wrong) that it is another Left strawman like all these white supremacists and neo nazis we apparently have running all around the US. Funny, I'm a white guy and have traveled all over the US. I saw some white supremacist/neo nazis once in my life and it was only because I happened to stop by a road side convenience store in the middle of nowhere in Western PA years & years ago. I've never personally met one in all my travels. And if there was ever someone who "looked like" he could be one, it's me: White, blue eyes, shaved head, with a goatee. I could look like the poster boy to these scumbags. And yet... never met one.

    I have a feeling (again, I could be wrong) that this QAnon thing is similar. Much ado about nothing. I hear about the Proud Boys and how they are a racist group. I did some (barely) surface inquiry into them and found that 20% of them are black and they have a good number of hispanics in there as well and I believe either the founder or head of the Proud Boys is black. Wow, that must be some kind of racist organization that tolerates and allows other races in their ranks.

    I have asked multiple conservative friends of mine and no one seems to know about QAnon. But it's all I hear about from the left. And they talk about how QAnon COULD be violent. Meanwhile, we have had MONTHS & MONTHS of violence all over our country and ALL of it is from the left, but that hardly gets a mention. There MIGHT be this "Alt-Right" group (that again, no one I know on the right knows anything about) that MIGHT become violent and it's "STOP THE PRESS!!!!!" Without these lies to feed off of, the left dies. Not liberals, but the left.

    V
    You've not experienced it, so it's all lies.

    Fair enough. I'm persuaded.

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  15. #207
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christabel View Post
    There's an old saying in psychology; when somebody is accusing you they're really telling you all about themselves!! I must say no kind of extremist talk would ever come into conversations with people I know; they understand, as I do, that polar extremes eventually cancel themselves out by squeezing the majority back into the centre. A kind of gravity, if you will. The kind of arguments that are likely to create divisions are of the type mentioned a few comments back about the 'trickle down' economy, culture wars, feminism - but these are unlikely to occur in any interactions I have anyway. When you get to a certain stage in your life (cough) you are more concerned about social stability and cohesion, stable economies which can thrive, employment and freedom of speech.
    I guess the German unpleasantness of 1933 onward was all just a dream.......

  16. #208
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christabel View Post
    There's an old saying in psychology; when somebody is accusing you they're really telling you all about themselves!! I must say no kind of extremist talk would ever come into conversations with people I know; they understand, as I do, that polar extremes eventually cancel themselves out by squeezing the majority back into the centre. A kind of gravity, if you will. The kind of arguments that are likely to create divisions are of the type mentioned a few comments back about the 'trickle down' economy, culture wars, feminism - but these are unlikely to occur in any interactions I have anyway. When you get to a certain stage in your life (cough) you are more concerned about social stability and cohesion, stable economies which can thrive, employment and freedom of speech.

    "I must say no kind of extremist talk would ever come into conversations with people I know;…"

    That's good, because, for example, even mild debating online (in such an unnatural state) accelerates aging and organ damage. Online debating is equivalent to smoking a pack a day. This to me is a curious scientific topic. Due to millions of years of natural selection individuals who are stressed out about relationships or squabbling between groups are written off (they're shunned and they die). This harsh outcome is afterall good for the survival of the species. And there's a feedback effect so that if you are perceived as unlikable you will internalize the negatives you expereince, and then those negatives will reinforce your unlikable behavior, on and on.

    In the bigger picture all this is because we can't survive to reproduce on our own. We're curious creatures and ‘evolution' has no interest in individuals. We need other people in order to have a high probability of reproducing our genes, in natural selection terms.
    Last edited by Luchesi; Oct-29-2020 at 16:04.
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  17. #209
    Senior Member Varick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    And now a little FBI something about The Proud Boys.....

    "The FBI now classifies the far-right Proud Boys as an “extremist group with ties to white nationalism”, according to a document produced by Washington state law enforcement.

    The FBI’s 2018 designation of the self-confessed “western chauvinist group” as extremist has not been previously made public.

    Who are the Proud Boys, 'western chauvinists' involved in political violence?

    The Proud Boys was founded by the Vice Media co-founder Gavin McInnes. McInnes has insisted that his group is not white nationalist or “alt-right” but the Proud Boys have a history of misogyny and glorifying violence. The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) lists them as a hate group.

    The document also says: “The FBI has warned local law enforcement agencies that the Proud Boys are actively recruiting in the Pacific north-west”, and: “Proud Boys members have contributed to the recent escalation of violence at political rallies held on college campuses, and in cities like Charlottesville, Virginia, Portland, Oregon, and Seattle, Washington.”
    Wow, a hate group that has absolutely ZERO credibility calls another group a hate group. If anyone is dumb enough to give the SPLC any credibility, then they deserve to believe the lies that are spewed by such a despicable organization as the SPLC.

    V
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

  18. #210
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    I notice that our friend Varick has chosen to ignore the input of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the threats posed by the several Right groups discussed above--very careful, that. Two possibilities: A) Varick is not current on the day's events and thus has not heard of or been following the almost universally-expressed concerns of not only the FBI but also well-informed people on the Right end of the spectrum (National Review folks, for instance; Republican senators), hence his wondering dismissal of talk of the possibility of Right White Supremacist and/or QAnon violence, should the election disappoint. B) The other possibility I leave to the imagination.......

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