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Thread: COVID19 vaccine announcement is promising news

  1. #376
    Senior Member NoCoPilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianozach View Post
    ..at some point the toxins used to mask the symptoms of a disease have to be assessed as to the whether the side effects are worse than the disease(s) they're meant to treat.
    What the heck!?!? Are you talking about 'killed virus' in vaccines?

    Any way you look at vaccines -- and I mean ANY WAY -- you have to admit the incidence of side effects is minuscule compared to the devastation of the diseases they prevent. Only a total idiot would weigh them equally.

  2. #377
    Senior Member DaveM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianozach View Post
    Ah, yes, the old weighing the problem against the dangers of the cure. It's the same with medications - at some point the toxins used to mask the symptoms of a disease have to be assessed as to the whether the side effects are worse than the disease(s) they're meant to treat.

    Angels and ministers of grace, defend us!
    What toxins mask symptoms of what diseases where side effects are worse than the disease?

    And since you’re questioning my post regarding vaccines, specifically which vaccines have toxins which cause side effects worse than the disease?
    Last edited by DaveM; Nov-26-2020 at 02:42.

  3. #378
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    I wish that those who appear to agonize over the possible side-effects of vaccines that have been give together or separately for many years would spend more time educating themselves on the diseases that are meant to prevent and the havoc they played on young children in the past.
    I wonder if there's a limit to the amount of info from vaccines that a human can usefully store. What happens when a limit is reached? Earlier info is lost? Maybe we evolved and long-survived under the onslaught of fewer viral dangers.

    I never took much biology. Is it obvious?
    Last edited by Luchesi; Nov-26-2020 at 04:12.
    Albert Einstein, "I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music.

  4. #379
    Senior Member NoCoPilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    I wonder if there's a limit to the amount of info from vaccines that a human can usefully store. What happens when a limit is reached? Earlier info is lost? Maybe we evolved and long-survived under the onslaught of fewer viral dangers.
    Bad information displaces good.

  5. #380
    Senior Member pianozach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoCoPilot View Post
    What the heck!?!? Are you talking about 'killed virus' in vaccines?

    Any way you look at vaccines -- and I mean ANY WAY -- you have to admit the incidence of side effects is minuscule compared to the devastation of the diseases they prevent. Only a total idiot would weigh them equally.
    This is what happens when you read others' words while biased. You end up reading them incorrectly and start calling people names, like "total idiot".

    In this case I was addressing

    1. medicines (toxins) that are dangerous. You've seen the print ads, with a page full of warnings and potential side effects. You've seen the TV ads where at the end someone talks through some of the complications really really really fast. Complications like "death".

    2. Vaccines, medications, and other products that are rushed to without proper vetting or trials, whether it's poorly designed cribs, dangerous automobiles, food with questionable ingredients, or even medications that cause birth defects, like thalidomide.

    I'm certainly not "anti-vaccine". I'm "anti-rushing-a-vaccine-to-market-without-vetting-it".

    I think that some vaccinations are given to children too early, that is, before their immune systems are even developed enough to handle the vaccines (Did you know that children do not have fully developed immune systems until they are about 7-8 years old? Are you familiar with the CDC immunization recommendations?) Yeah, I'd say that 2 months is a wee bit too early: 9 months seems a far more appropriate age (and is actually the CDCs recommended age for "catch-up immunization" anyway). But that's a different discussion.

    Anyway, as a retired doctor, I'd say our quality of life has been vastly improved through the development of vaccines.

    But the idea that the FDA would rush this process before late stage clinical trials are complete is incredibly risky.

    Let me quote another doctor, Dr. Howard Markel, a pediatrician, distinguished professor, and director of the Center for the History of Medicine at the University of Michigan: "This is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard this administration say. All it takes is one bad side effect to basically botch a vaccine program that we desperately need against this virus. It's a prescription for disaster."

    A too-early Emergency Use Authorization for a vaccine could cause a "nightmare scenario," for a few reasons:

    • The vaccine may not be safe.
    • If it is not safe, people will lose faith in vaccines.
    • If a vaccine doesn't offer complete protection, people will have a false sense of security and increase their risk.
    • If a substandard vaccine gets an EUA, a better vaccine may never get approval, because people would be reluctant to enroll in trials and risk getting a placebo instead of a vaccine.


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  6. #381
    Senior Member pianozach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post

    . . . Thimerosal is also used during the manufacturing process but is no longer an ingredient in any vaccine except multi-dose vials of the flu vaccine.
    When thimerosal enters the body, it breaks down to ethylmercury and thiosalicylate.

    Methylmercury is a known neurotoxicant.
    Last edited by pianozach; Nov-26-2020 at 05:30.

  7. #382
    Senior Member Baron Scarpia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    I wonder if there's a limit to the amount of info from vaccines that a human can usefully store. What happens when a limit is reached? Earlier info is lost? Maybe we evolved and long-survived under the onslaught of fewer viral dangers.

    I never took much biology. Is it obvious?
    A single cell doesn't have to store all immunity information. When the immune system encounters a new disease it (hopefully) creates some specialized immune cells against that disease that linger in the body and are activated if the disease is recognized again. The number of vaccinations is probably very small compared the the number of routine pathogens that a person has encountered in life and harbor some immunity for.
    There are two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington.

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  9. #383
    Senior Member Baron Scarpia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianozach View Post
    When thimerosal enters the body, it breaks down to ethylmercury and thiosalicylate.

    Methylmercury is a known neurotoxicant.
    Well, it's a good thing it breaks down into ethylmercury and not methylmercury.

    These things can be measured, you know, and they actually confirmed that children who received vaccines containing thimerosal did not end up with dangerous levels of mercury, and that eating a serving of tuna fish will give you more mercury than any vaccine.
    There are two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington.

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  11. #384
    Senior Member DaveM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianozach
    Anyway, as a retired doctor, I'd say our quality of life has been vastly improved through the development of vaccines. But the idea that the FDA would rush this process before late stage clinical trials are complete is incredibly risky.
    While I sympathize with your concerns, you must be aware that in some circumstances certain risks must be accepted that wouldn’t be ordinarily. As we speak, 2000 people a day are dying. I’d say that’s a situation indicating the sort of risk/benefit judgment that physicians in high-risk specialties have been trained to face and perhaps this is the time to trust them.

    I’d be concerned about the risk of inadequate/rushed Phase 3 trials for a vaccine for the common cold, but that’s hardly what we’re fighting here. (Typical Phase 4 trials will likely continue after release of the vaccines.)
    Last edited by DaveM; Nov-26-2020 at 08:48.

  12. #385
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Something we might be thankful for today:

    “A giant study of more than 12,000 mutations in the novel coronavirus finds none of them has made a big difference in how easily it infects people, researchers reported Wednesday.

    “The mutations, found in more than 46,000 samples taken from 99 different countries, all appear to be neutral, the team of leading viral genetics experts reported in the journal Nature Communications.”

    Story here.
    Last edited by KenOC; Nov-26-2020 at 21:46.


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  14. #386
    Senior Member NoCoPilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    As we speak, 2000 people a day are dying.
    And that is in the USA only. More like 12,000 worldwide.

    To say this is an emergency would be an understatement on a grand scale. I agree rushing vaccines without full-scale testing is risky... but anything less than 12,000 deaths per day (and rising) is an improvement.

    I'm sorry I called you a perfect idiot. Nobody's perfect.

  15. #387
    Senior Member NoCoPilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianozach View Post
    This is what happens when you read others' words while biased. You end up reading them incorrectly and start calling people names, like "total idiot".
    By the way, I didn't actually call you, or anyone in particular, a "total idiot." I only pointed out that it would take one to hold that vaccines are more harmful than the diseases they prevent.

    I'm sure we're all way too smart to hold THAT view.

  16. #388
    Senior Member DaveM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoCoPilot View Post
    And that is in the USA only. More like 12,000 worldwide.

    To say this is an emergency would be an understatement on a grand scale. I agree rushing vaccines without full-scale testing is risky... but anything less than 12,000 deaths per day (and rising) is an improvement.

    I'm sorry I called you a perfect idiot. Nobody's perfect.
    If you’re referring to your post #376, I’m not the one you were calling a perfect idiot.

  17. #389
    Senior Member Baron Scarpia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Something we might be thankful for today:

    “A giant study of more than 12,000 mutations in the novel coronavirus finds none of them has made a big difference in how easily it infects people, researchers reported Wednesday.

    “The mutations, found in more than 46,000 samples taken from 99 different countries, all appear to be neutral, the team of leading viral genetics experts reported in the journal Nature Communications.”

    Story here.
    Another recent study concludes that one particular mutation made the virus spread faster, but more vulnerable to antibodies, a mixed blessing. It's how science goes, contradictory findings in early days are eventually distilled in find a consensus.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1112144040.htm
    There are two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington.

  18. #390
    Senior Member NoCoPilot's Avatar
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    Here in the good ol' USA the Supreme Court ruled Wednesday that churches are exempt from state guidelines limiting public gatherings.

    SCOTUS wants to kill churchgoers.


    What does Clarence Thomas have against god???

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