Thread: Music which is meant to depict something

My wife who usually has a good ear for music was complaining that she can never hear the meaning of programme music. We tried Morning from Peer Gynt. She claimed only to know that it’s a sunrise because of an old TV ad. We tried other pieces. She didn’t get the thunderstorm in Beethoven’s 6th, nor the Fireworks in Handel’s music. Only Lumbye’s Kopenhagener Steam Railway Galopp was obvious to her. Do we only know what programme music depicts because we’ve read about it somewhere? Is there music where it’s obvious?

Originally Posted by Hermastersvoice

My wife who usually has a good ear for music was complaining that she can never hear the meaning of programme music. We tried Morning from Peer Gynt. She claimed only to know that it’s a sunrise because of an old TV ad. We tried other pieces. She didn’t get the thunderstorm in Beethoven’s 6th, nor the Fireworks in Handel’s music. Only Lumbye’s Kopenhagener Steam Railway Galopp was obvious to her. Do we only know what programme music depicts because we’ve read about it somewhere? Is there music where it’s obvious?

Play her the Storm Interlude from Peter Grimes and see if she can hear the ropes striking the masts!

Originally Posted by Hermastersvoice

My wife who usually has a good ear for music was complaining that she can never hear the meaning of programme music. We tried Morning from Peer Gynt. She claimed only to know that it’s a sunrise because of an old TV ad. We tried other pieces. She didn’t get the thunderstorm in Beethoven’s 6th, nor the Fireworks in Handel’s music. Only Lumbye’s Kopenhagener Steam Railway Galopp was obvious to her. Do we only know what programme music depicts because we’ve read about it somewhere? Is there music where it’s obvious?

Your wife is ahead of the game.

IMO there is nothing sillier than what has been called "program music." Listen to the music as music; every work that has been said to have a program is primarily music to be listened to on its own terms. There is absolutely no need to know anything about a story, or whatever has been said the music is supposed to represent. Unless it is an opera or song, I don't consider any instrumental music as "programmatic."

If you wish to follow a story, watch a movie or read a book.

Richard Strauss claimed that he could describe a knife and a fork through his music if someone paid him enough money. And in fact, after listening to a performance of Strauss' Sinfonia Domestica, a critic remarked that he could actually hear the clatter of the knife and fork, but failed to specify the passage. According to Strauss, a sensitive listener could ascertain the very hair color of some of the romantic partners of Don Juan in Strauss’ symphonic poem of the same name, simply by the sound of the music alone. Conductor Scott Speck says that Strauss uses fiery, impetuous-sounding music to convey the hair color, but I have yet to see a chart which accurately matches the varying intensities of Strauss' music to specific shades of hair color.

I am very sceptical of the notion that music can depict something or communicate some thoughts. If I have not read previously that Bruckner's symphonies are "cathedrals of sound" and that Bruckner was so religious, I would never suspect any spirituality in his music. The only reason I associate Bruckner with God is because I have read about it.

Even "program music" generates different responses (feelings, thoughts etc) to different listeners.
I believe that the title and not the music itself, creates correlations.
If we give three completely random titles to a specific piece of music, we'll get three different responses from three different listeners.
Music is by nature abstract.

Originally Posted by norman bates

I would be on a similar position, but I think that something like The unanswered question without the program/description/explaination made by Ives would make the work a lot less fascinating and interesting.

So... I don't quite agree. We don't need any literally story of an "Unanswered Question", for the musical elements have semiotic significance and speak for themselves.

And really, there are just three main musical elements! The strings, the trumpet, and the woodwinds.

The diatonic/modal slow quasistatic string chorale, even though it need not literally represent anything in a literary program like the "silence of the druids", has a clear musical signalling role. The teasing trumpet call that alternates between ending in C and B is like a kind of question in the way the pitch contour resembles the way a human being's voice would ask a question. We don't need to necessarily label it as an eternal existential question about the meaning of life, but it nevertheless evokes the feeling of a question. The woodwinds' increasingly agitated responses, even going as far to directly quote and mock the question itself, are all in the musical score. Again, we don't need to label the woodwinds as a direct literary element.

We don't need, per se, to give these three main elements in the Ives work a literary story for their semiotic importance to produce the musical effect.

Originally Posted by norman bates

I would be on a similar position, but I think that something like The unanswered question without the program/description/explaination made by Ives would make the work a lot less fascinating and interesting.

I have listened to that work countless times and enjoyed it, it is one of my favorite works by Ives. But I never knew it had a program. I certainly do not want to know what it is at this point.

Originally Posted by RICK RIEKERT

Richard Strauss claimed that he could describe a knife and a fork through his music if someone paid him enough money. And in fact, after listening to a performance of Strauss' Sinfonia Domestica, a critic remarked that he could actually hear the clatter of the knife and fork, but failed to specify the passage. According to Strauss, a sensitive listener could ascertain the very hair color of some of the romantic partners of Don Juan in Strauss’ symphonic poem of the same name, simply by the sound of the music alone. Conductor Scott Speck says that Strauss uses fiery, impetuous-sounding music to convey the hair color, but I have yet to see a chart which accurately matches the varying intensities of Strauss' music to specific shades of hair color.

Strauss may wish to set that as a goal for his compositions. But I think it is a waste of time and lowers the bar for what music is able to achieve. I've never been a fan of Richard Strauss's music, in part because of this kind of statement which I was aware of, but mainly because I don't like the sound of his music.

Originally Posted by Ich muss Caligari werden

I agree with you about the music being primary, but if we're being honest about "music being listened to on its own terms," then we must honor many composers' intentions to evoke in their listener's mind's eye, er, ear, a specific image. Those are its terms. Otherwise, "program music" would not exist as such and composers would not bother to title their works as many have and continue to do. Many composers enjoy the interplay and/or tension they create between the abstract and the material. Certainly LvB was one of those when he noted that the Pastorale contained "more an expression of feeling than painting." To the other extreme, say, is Leroy Anderson's Typewriter.

Composers have many ideas about how they wish their music to be perceived and what they might wish to evoke in the minds of an audience. However, once the work enters the public realm, the work has a life of its own. Some performers/conductors may wish to honor a composer's program, but there is no law that a work cannot be performed successfully without a reference to the composer's program.

Anyone is free to enjoy a work and its program. For me I've never been a fan program music and ignore all extra-musical aspects, e.g. programs, biographical or historical information, etc., when I listen to a work.

I suggest stepping into the Colosseum with Ottorino Respighi, along with the beasts and the martyrs, the crowd, the horns, of Circenses that opens Roman Festivals. If you manage to avoid being eaten by the lions, you will tell others about the power of descriptive music.