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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    ...the system is actually very flexible creatively and practically...As Knorf and I have already touched on, the fact that one could use double accidentals in a key signature is an example of the flexibility inherent in the system...
    Key signatures such as F-flat major are known as theoretical key signatures.

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    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    G sharp major:

    [ 1:33 ]

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    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Key signatures such as F-flat major are known as theoretical key signatures.
    I'm not sure what you are getting at MR but there is no flaw here. The practical in music supersedes the theoretical once we get into theses realms because otherwise harmonic spelling in particular can get very complicated. I mentioned earlier that harmonic fastidiousness and voice leading are critical in most cases, but there is a limit and that border is policed by common sense, clarity and Occam's razor.

    And just to answer the OP question, there is if you want it.....

    Unknown-4.png
    Last edited by mikeh375; Nov-22-2020 at 08:24.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    I'm not sure what you are getting at MR but there is no flaw here.
    It's simple math, as well as simplicity. If you've ever really thought about this, you would agree that it is a "flaw" or "glitch" to use theoretical key signatures such as Fb or G#.

    Our system is diatonic (7 note scales). There are only 7 letter/note names, ABCDEFG. There are 12 total notes in the octave. The formula for a major scale in steps is W-W-H-W-W-W-H.

    When you exceed 7 scales, redundancy sets in, and the system exceeds its limit of 7.

    Up in fifths is C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#. To go further in sharps is redundant, because "G#" is equivalent to Ab.
    Down in fifths (up in fourths) is C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-Gb-Cb. To go further up in fourths is redundant: "Fb" is already accounted for as E.

    The key signatures shared are Db/C#, Gb/F#, and Cb/B.

    The key signatures with seven flats (♭) and seven sharps (♯) are rarely used because they have simpler enharmonic equivalents. For example, the key of C♯ major (seven sharps) is more simply represented as D♭ major (five flats).

    Key signatures can be further extended through double sharps and double flats (for example, a piece in the key of G♯ major can be expressed with a double sharp on F double-sharp, and six sharps on the other six pitches). As with the seven-sharp and seven-flat examples, it is rarely necessary to express music in such keys when simpler enharmonic examples can instead be used (in the case of G♯, the same passage could be expressed in A♭ with only four flats).
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Nov-22-2020 at 13:15.

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    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    So I was right eh, it is about equal temperament and enharmonic practice.

    What you see as redundancy in enharmonic writing is actually a valuable and powerful resource because in the immediate concerns whilst writing, enharmonic practice/technique can open new sonic/harmonic doorways with its options, solve voice leading issues and clarify transitions to other areas. It can logically justify (if that is deemed necessary), almost any harmonic/key shift.

    Any note can be re-spelt and any note or re-spelling thereof can have a new functional role. That kind of flexibility enables an intellectual fluency that can explore options and gives one a criteria of good and bad the more one ventures forward....that's a good thing.

    Far from you hammering another nail into CP/music theory's coffin, all you've done is highlight one of its creative strengths as far as I can tell. If I'm missing your point then so be it, the system works beautifully for most needs.
    Last edited by mikeh375; Nov-22-2020 at 13:47.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    So I was right eh, it is about equal temperament and enharmonic practice.

    What you see as redundancy in enharmonic writing is actually a valuable and powerful resource because in the immediate concerns whilst writing, enharmonic practice/technique can open new sonic/harmonic doorways with its options, solve voice leading issues and clarify transitions to other areas. It can logically justify (if that is deemed necessary), almost any harmonic/key shift.

    Any note can be re-spelt and any note or re-spelling thereof can have a new functional role. That kind of flexibility enables an intellectual fluency that can explore options and gives one a criteria of good and bad the more one ventures forward....that's a good thing.
    That simply sounds like an accommodation to the tenets of "function". Rather than some "advanced intellectual process," it sounds like 'bending over backwards' to accommodate the specialized voice-leading and key shift tenets and nomenclatures which traditional 18th/19th century Western music theory is burdened with.

    Far from you hammering another nail into CP/music theory's coffin, all you've done is highlight one of its creative strengths as far as I can tell. If I'm missing your point then so be it, the system works beautifully for most needs.
    Sure it does, if you're totally immersed in that box of thinking.

    What you see as "advantages" and "solutions" are only relevant within the parameters of conventional diatonic thinking. For chromatic thinkers outside the "diatonic box, " the notion of using seven accidentals, or using double-accidentals, is cumbersome and redundant.

    Breaking news: there are 12 notes.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Nov-23-2020 at 01:11.

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    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    No, your characterisation is off the mark I'm afraid.
    Such a shame you where bludgeoned into defeat by an idiot professor with a Beethoven sonata analysis because it might have adversely affected your judgement. I don't use the techniques literally, within the confines of the 'box' as I've moved on from them, but the paradigm is immensely fertile for a composer and learning it is a sure fire way of getting your hands dirty with the stuff of music.
    Last edited by mikeh375; Nov-22-2020 at 14:50.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    No, your characterisation is off the mark I'm afraid.
    Such a shame you where bludgeoned into defeat by an idiot professor with a Beethoven sonata analysis because it might have adversely affected your judgement. I don't use the techniques literally, within the confines of the 'box' as I've moved on from them, but the paradigm is immensely fertile for a composer and learning it is a sure fire way of getting your hands dirty with the stuff of music.
    Yes, it's a shame that these professors were totally exclusive in their thinking. Maybe if they had been black, and played some jazz, things might have been different.

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    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Why isn't there the same number of black keys as white, and no yellow or red keys? That's inequality.

    Hold on, the harpsichord!
    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Nov-22-2020 at 15:14.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    Why isn't there the same number of black keys as white, and no yellow or red keys? That's inequality.

    Hold on, the harpsichord!
    Ha ha, that's absolutely hilarious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    Why isn't there the same number of black keys as white, and no yellow or red keys? That's inequality.
    Hold on, the harpsichord!
    Post of the week

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    Senior Member JAS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    Why isn't there the same number of black keys as white, and no yellow or red keys? That's inequality.

    Hold on, the harpsichord!
    I have seen harpsichords with yellow keys. (Ivory will do that over time.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAS View Post
    I have seen harpsichords with yellow keys. (Ivory will do that over time.)
    No, that's not what he meant. I gather from this that you've never seen a harpsichord where the CDEFGAB keys are black, and the accidentals are white.

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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    No, that's not what he meant. I gather from this that you've never seen a harpsichord where the CDEFGAB keys are black, and the accidentals are white.
    96141240-keyboard-of-old-harpsichord-with-brown-wooden-keys.jpg

    Old harpsichord, with keys turned yellow with age.

    And another, although these may be wood rather than ivory:

    depositphotos_259448996-stock-photo-close-front-view-old-wooden.jpg

    (Also, it was meant at least partially in good humor, as was the post to which I replied.)
    Last edited by JAS; Nov-22-2020 at 19:11.

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