View Poll Results: Do you believe in greatness in music?

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  • Yes.

    79 89.77%
  • No.

    9 10.23%
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Thread: Do you believe in greatness in music?

  1. #361
    Senior Member consuono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handelian View Post
    I thought that your statement was rather silly saying that people are deprived just because they do not like classical music which means that most of the population is deprived. Do you live in a real world with real people? ...
    Yes I do and I think most of them may very well be deprived in that sense. It's why Bernstein did what he did to educate young people about music. According to you then I guess such efforts are wastes of time.
    I never said that people who don't know about/like classical music are lesser people. You put those words in my mouth. I said they are deprived people, and then you niggle over the word "deprived" and people are dying, for heaven's sake. Bye.
    Last edited by consuono; Dec-01-2020 at 23:09.

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  3. #362
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handelian View Post
    Sorry but this can come across an elitist view held by people who appreciate classical music. I happen to be one of them but I know many people who don’t appreciate what we consider these great works does not make them somehow lesser beings. I have a good friend who has no idea of appreciation of culture as we would describe it but works among the homeless and destitute seeking to make their lives better. So I do not think his lack of appreciation of the arts makes him a lesser human being. The fact that classical music knowledge is not widespread. Most people in society do not appreciate it. We must not kid ourselves they do. It is widespread among people like us who do appreciate it but most people don’t. If you move in the circles of ordinary people in life you will find that most of them do not appreciate classical music
    You're reading something into my words that isn't there. There's no judgment of non-appreciators of Bach as "lesser people." Of course, in a sense, we're all "lesser" than people who possess knowledge and abilities we lack, but then we may have knowledge and abilities that they don't have. I'm no more interested in ranking people than in ranking composers, but as a painter I'm happy to stand humble before the incredible achievements of Vermeer.

    Vermeer was a great artist, by the way. It's not just my "subjective" opinion.

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  5. #363
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    Why do I keep having the feeling that some do not understand that the word and the concepts of "great" or "greatness" do not go away--are not abolished--under an "esthetics is subjective and personal" viewpoint? These ideas or terms continue, or can continue--unscathed, unwounded, robust--they can be held individually, or shared, as people see fit. The only thing that changes is the replacement of some blanket ex cathedra pronunciamento--or the equivalent of a Papal Bull--that Beethoven's Ninth is Great by a more modest "It's great if I think it's great--Your experience may differ."
    But Beethoven's 9th really IS great, by any applicable standard (by "applicable" I mean to avoid comparing apples and peafowl).

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  7. #364
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    "Vermeer was a great artist, by the way. It's not just my "subjective" opinion."

    Indeed, it is an opinion we can and do share.

    I am awaiting a Papal Encyclical on Beethoven's Ninth. Parts of it I like more than others...... And what about the Eroica?
    Last edited by Strange Magic; Dec-01-2020 at 23:33.

  8. #365
    Senior Member consuono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck
    You're reading something into my words that isn't there. There's no judgment of non-appreciators of Bach as "lesser people." Of course, in a sense, we're all "lesser" than people who possess knowledge and abilities we lack, but then we may have knowledge and abilities that they don't have.
    Yeah, exactly; I'm deprived in my lack of knowledge of theoretical physics or higher mathematics, for example. It would be idiotic of me to try to minimize those things as non-essential just because I'm ignorant of them.
    Last edited by consuono; Dec-01-2020 at 23:34.

  9. #366
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    "Vermeer was a great artist, by the way. It's not just my "subjective" opinion."

    Indeed, it is an opinionwe can and do share.
    Glad to hear it. It's one of those opinions that's very difficult not to share. His vision and skill have had the world dumbfounded for more than 300 years. I can't imagine why anyone would begrudge him the designation "great." Indeed the word seems feeble in his case. Had I been a young painter in Delft in 1670, I'd have slept on his doorstep until he took me as an apprentice.

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  11. #367
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    I am awaiting a Papal Encyclical on Beethoven's Ninth. Parts of it I like more than others
    So...?

    And what about the Eroica?
    Indeed.

  12. #368
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Some factoids about Vermeer:

    Vermeer had no formal artistic training and apparently did not undergo an apprenticeship as a painter.

    His body of work is quite small, consisting of less than 50 total paintings.

    He never had any pupils or apprentices of his own.

    Nearly all of Vermeer’s paintings were staged in one of two rooms in his home.

    There are no surviving preparatory drawings or sketches attributed to Vermeer.

    X-rays of Vermeer’s paintings reveal no underdrawings or compositional corrections.

    His paintings contain lighting and perspective distortions that can only be seen through manmade lenses.

    And finally, Vermeer was a close friend of Antonie van Leeuwenhoek, a Dutch scientist known for his trailblazing work in the fields of lens making and microscopy.

    I offer these completely outside of our discussions about objective/subjective. Vermeer very closely parallels and foretells the coming and work and mindset of the American Luminist painters of the mid-19th century--in fact, Vermeer could be called the premier interior Luminist, bringing indoors the all-pervasive yet pregnant calm of the outdoor American painters.

  13. #369
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    Classic TC thread this

    'Great': adjective. Meaning of ability, quality, or eminence considerably above average.

    Yes, i believe in this in classical music and in all other human endeavours.

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  15. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    Yes I do and I think most of them may very well be deprived in that sense. It's why Bernstein did what he did to educate young people about music. According to you then I guess such efforts are wastes of time.
    I never said that people who don't know about/like classical music are lesser people. You put those words in my mouth. I said they are deprived people, and then you niggle over the word "deprived" and people are dying, for heaven's sake. Bye.
    Sorry but you appear totally out of touch with how many ordinary people think and operate. The word ‘deprived’ has negative connotations. My dear old mum was not musical at all but was a highly successful person with many friends. To use the word ‘deprived’ of someone like her is laughable. To use it on Beethoven when you read his tragic life might be more appropriate.
    Last edited by Handelian; Dec-02-2020 at 16:47.

  16. #371
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juliante View Post
    Classic TC thread this

    'Great': adjective. Meaning of ability, quality, or eminence considerably above average.

    Yes, i believe in this in classical music and in all other human endeavours.
    I agree entirely. There is no war between our individual assessments of "great", ''greatness" and the notion of the total personal and subjective nature of esthetics. I voted Yes, as I have my own canon of great, greatness, etc., as do we all. Many of us share in similar assessments and rejoice in one another's affirmation.

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  18. #372
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    But Beethoven's 9th really IS great, by any applicable standard (by "applicable" I mean to avoid comparing apples and peafowl).
    Our old friend, the Count of T'ang, listened attentively to Beethoven's Ninth. He is a cultured man of exquisite taste, but told me in private conversation that he did not care for it entirely--liking parts, disliking others.

  19. #373
    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    But Beethoven's 9th really IS great, by any applicable standard (by "applicable" I mean to avoid comparing apples and peafowl).
    So what? The fact that you say "Beethoven's 9th really IS great, by any applicable standard" won't make me enjoy it any more or less.

    Rhetorical question: If a list of works could be assembled of "great" works (it can't because as soon as you try people will argue about what's in and what's out), would that mean that only the music on the list is worth listening to?

  20. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    You're reading something into my words that isn't there. There's no judgment of non-appreciators of Bach as "lesser people." Of course, in a sense, we're all "lesser" than people who possess knowledge and abilities we lack, but then we may have knowledge and abilities that they don't have. I'm no more interested in ranking people than in ranking composers, but as a painter I'm happy to stand humble before the incredible achievements of Vermeer.

    Vermeer was a great artist, by the way. It's not just my "subjective" opinion.
    Yes I agree with that assessment. We might be in awe of (eg) Beethoven the composer but of Beethoven the man we can only feel pity for when we read of his dysfunctional lifestyle. We can also say the same about a lot of great artists. Highly successful artists but highly unsuccessful people
    Last edited by Handelian; Dec-02-2020 at 16:51.

  21. #375
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    Some factoids about Vermeer:

    Vermeer had no formal artistic training and apparently did not undergo an apprenticeship as a painter.

    His body of work is quite small, consisting of less than 50 total paintings.

    He never had any pupils or apprentices of his own.

    Nearly all of Vermeer’s paintings were staged in one of two rooms in his home.

    There are no surviving preparatory drawings or sketches attributed to Vermeer.

    X-rays of Vermeer’s paintings reveal no underdrawings or compositional corrections.

    His paintings contain lighting and perspective distortions that can only be seen through manmade lenses.

    And finally, Vermeer was a close friend of Antonie van Leeuwenhoek, a Dutch scientist known for his trailblazing work in the fields of lens making and microscopy.

    I offer these completely outside of our discussions about objective/subjective. Vermeer very closely parallels and foretells the coming and work and mindset of the American Luminist painters of the mid-19th century--in fact, Vermeer could be called the premier interior Luminist, bringing indoors the all-pervasive yet pregnant calm of the outdoor American painters.
    Yes, he created great works and experts elaborate and explain about the reasons and complexities and his place in the arts etc.. It's the same with great scores. How is this different to you? I'm curious. For me it's always about the creations (scores), and surely not about the general audiences.
    Albert Einstein, "I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music.

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