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Thread: Is there a better conductor of the great German composers than Eugen Jochum?!

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    Senior Member RogerWaters's Avatar
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    Default Is there a better conductor of the great German composers than Eugen Jochum?!

    His Mozart symphonies with the Bamberg Symphony
    His Haydn (12 London) symphonies with the London Philharmonic
    His Beethoven symphonies with the Concertgebeouw
    His Schubert (unfinished) symphony with the Boston Symphony
    His Brahms symphonies with the London Philharmonic
    His Bruckner symphonies with the Staatskapelle (and Berlin/Bavarian)

    All delights. All great sound- not too thin, not too muddy. Great tempos- Haydn and Mozart are not too baggy yet not prissy (amazing for a non HIP conductor). Beethoven, Brahms and Bruckner do not lack robustness and metal when required. The great firey furnace is duly invoked.

    Now, I can tell I’m going to get the word ‘furtwangler’ thrown at me, but I simply can’t agree due the sometimes strange tempos of the latter. Indeed Jochum could be taken, accurately I think, to be on the ‘flexible’ tempos side of things without being perverse about it.

    At any rate, what a conductor!
    Last edited by RogerWaters; Today at 04:12.

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    Senior Member KevinJS's Avatar
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    You can add his Orff. I have about a dozen copies of Carmina Burana, but I always end up coming back to Jochum.

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    He has a very good Bach B minor Mass as well.

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    Senior Member KevinW's Avatar
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    Otto Klemperer?

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    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerWaters View Post
    Now, I can tell I’m going to get the word ‘furtwangler’ thrown at me, but I simply can’t agree due the sometimes strange tempos of the latter.
    Furtwangler's tempos are strange? O RLY? What are some examples of them?

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    Senior Member KevinW's Avatar
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    Furtwängler's tempo isn't very weird. I am listening to his Beethoven and it does not sound weird at all, at least compared to other people. Celibidache is super slow sometimes, though.

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    Senior Member Brahmsianhorn's Avatar
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    It’s not just the tempos. Furtwängler delved deeper into the music than most any conductor, and for some people it is too much. They find him to be wringing meaning from every note, whereas Jochum was closer to the surface.

    I like them all and depending upon my mood. In some of my depressed days over the past three decades, Furtwängler’s recordings provided comfort, much the same way they did for people suffering through war. At other times when I’m more “chill” I prefer to hear other recordings in better sound and more straightforward interpretations.

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    Senior Member RogerWaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    It’s not just the tempos. Furtwängler delved deeper into the music than most any conductor, and for some people it is too much. They find him to be wringing meaning from every note, whereas Jochum was closer to the surface.

    I like them all and depending upon my mood. In some of my depressed days over the past three decades, Furtwängler’s recordings provided comfort, much the same way they did for people suffering through war. At other times when I’m more “chill” I prefer to hear other recordings in better sound and more straightforward interpretations.
    Being a 'deeper' conductor to me means having a more unified 'architecture' and 'flow' to one's performances and not get bogged down in details.

    The difference between Barenboim and Rosen's Hammerklavier slow movement is instructive here. Barenboim 'delves', but not to good effect. This 'delving' does not necessarily make him a deeper interpreter (unless you simply equate fussing with 'deepness' a priori).

    The main problem I have with Furtwangler's recordings is the sound quality, not the interpretations anyway. They often sound very claustrophobic as well as being low-fi.
    Last edited by RogerWaters; Today at 05:40.

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    Senior Member Brahmsianhorn's Avatar
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    To answer your question, my own ranking is:

    1. Furtwängler
    2. Klemperer
    3. Karajan
    4. Bohm
    5. Jochum
    6. Bernstein
    7. Walter
    8. Giulini
    9. Horenstein
    10. Kempe

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    Member John Zito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brahmsianhorn View Post
    To answer your question, my own ranking is:

    1. Furtwängler
    2. Klemperer
    3. Karajan
    4. Bohm
    5. Jochum
    6. Bernstein
    7. Walter
    8. Giulini
    9. Horenstein
    10. Kempe
    Are there any living conductors that you think come within spitting distance of those folks in the core Austro-German repertoire?

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    Senior Member RogerWaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Zito View Post
    Are there any living conductors that you think come within spitting distance of those folks in the core Austro-German repertoire?
    A month ago I would have said yes and shouted 'Haitink', but alas.

    My only other contended is Blomstedt -but not for his most recent Beethoven efforts which are rather too HIPster for my liking. Anyway his oeuvre is not as complete, although he has recorded some Mozart symphonies, 2 Beethoven cycles, a Schubert symphony cycle, Brahms' four warhorses and some Bruckner symphonies.
    Last edited by RogerWaters; Today at 07:10.

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    Senior Member Brahmsianhorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Zito View Post
    Are there any living conductors that you think come within spitting distance of those folks in the core Austro-German repertoire?
    Barenboim.

    I wish I could say Honeck.

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    Senior Member Forster's Avatar
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    What I've heard of John Eliot Gardner with the ORR is worthy of praise, IMO.

    https://monteverdi.co.uk/john-eliot-...ven-symphonies

    In May 2020, the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique and John Eliot Gardiner should have been performing Beethoven’s complete symphonies at the Barbican Hall in London. This cycle was part of an international tour celebrating both Beethoven’s 250th anniversary and the 30th birthday of the ORR. We were lucky enough to be able to complete three cycles – in Barcelona, New York and Chicago – before the Covid-19 pandemic put a stop to all concerts.

    To give you a flavour of this monumental project, we are releasing a nine-part series of films where John Eliot Gardiner will give his thoughts on Beethoven’s musical mind, and the orchestra will be seen rehearsing the symphonies. Watch all films in the series now by clicking the links below:

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    Too many to name - I've never been a huge fan of "Abner" [Jochum/Yokum]

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    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerWaters View Post
    The main problem I have with Furtwangler's recordings is the sound quality, not the interpretations anyway. They often sound very claustrophobic as well as being low-fi.
    This doesn't prove he was a worse conductor than Jochum though.

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