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Thread: Why I Believe Mozart is So Successful

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    Senior Member Captainnumber36's Avatar
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    Default Why I Believe Mozart is So Successful

    - He had witty memorable melodies (this is where I think he has Haydn beat)
    - His music is the perfect length, and never bores the listener (Beethoven could go over the top here).
    - The consonance makes it pleasant to listen to, and in the end I think that's what we want.
    - There is great diversity in his music (something I feel Bach lacked in).

    This really might make him the greatest composer IN THEORY, at least mainstream society recognizes him as such (for the most part).

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    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    I'm waiting to see if you'll call him your enemy again I don't think that list is what makes him the greatest, or even great.

    He said Handel understood effect (better than any composer he knew), but I think he learned from Handel and surpassed him on effect. He knew how to use dissonance, etc. for certain effects that he wanted.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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    Senior Member Captainnumber36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    I'm waiting to see if you'll call him your enemy again I don't think that list is what makes him the greatest, or even great.

    He said Handel understood effect (better than any composer he knew), but I think he learned from Handel and surpassed him on effect. He knew how to use dissonance, etc. for certain effects that he wanted.
    Hahaha, he's not my enemy anymore .

    When you say effect, do you mean having control over what the listener will feel?

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    Senior Member Allerius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captainnumber36 View Post
    - He had witty memorable melodies (this is where I think he has Haydn beat)
    - His music is the perfect length, and never bores the listener (Beethoven could go over the top here).
    - The consonance makes it pleasant to listen to, and in the end I think that's what we want.
    - There is great diversity in his music (something I feel Bach lacked in).

    This really might make him the greatest composer IN THEORY, at least mainstream society recognizes him as such (for the most part).
    I see this thread as a kind of provocation.

    What is perfect lenght to you? How does Beethoven go over the top in that? Are you aware that Mozart makes more use of dissonance than many of his contemporaries? How does Bach lack diversity? Why would these four considerations of yours necessarily make Mozart the greatest composer, and which mainstream society recognizes him as such?
    Last edited by Allerius; Apr-09-2021 at 03:17.
    “To play a wrong note is insignificant; to play without passion is inexcusable.” - Ludwig van Beethoven.

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    Senior Member Captainnumber36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    I see this thread as a kind of provocation.

    What is perfect lenght to you? How does Beethoven go over the top in that? Are you aware that Mozart makes more use of dissonance than many of his contemporaries? How do Bach lack diversity?
    Perfect length is not a time frame, but rather the ability to keep the listener engaged. I feel Beethoven can get boring and laborious. It may be so Mozart used more dissonance, but it never sounds "bad" like atonal work today.

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    Senior Member Itullian's Avatar
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    To me Mozart is great because he touches my heart.
    His music has something that goes straight to the heart
    whether happy or sad or anything in between.
    Last edited by Itullian; Apr-09-2021 at 03:22.
    When all else fails, listen to Thick as a Brick.

    "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet

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    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captainnumber36 View Post
    The consonance makes it pleasant to listen to, and in the end I think that's what we want.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZmY-ScPo8M&t=9m21s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtJEN3Z2Jpg&t=7m4s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtJEN3Z2Jpg&t=11m15s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtJEN3Z2Jpg&t=15m33s

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    I'm waiting to see if you'll call him your enemy again
    Remember the time our Beethoven-loving Captain created anti-Mozart threads every week. Those good old days

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    Senior Member Allerius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captainnumber36 View Post
    Perfect length is not a time frame, but rather the ability to keep the listener engaged. I feel Beethoven can get boring and laborious. It may be so Mozart used more dissonance, but it never sounds "bad" like atonal work today.
    Interesting that you feel this way. I tend to remain more engaged when listening to Beethoven because he usually develops much more his material, and I dislike some of Mozart's early operas (before Idomeneo and Die Entführung aus dem Serail), particularly because I'm not too fond of two or three hours of secco recitatives.
    Last edited by Allerius; Apr-09-2021 at 03:37.
    “To play a wrong note is insignificant; to play without passion is inexcusable.” - Ludwig van Beethoven.

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    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captainnumber36 View Post
    Hahaha, he's not my enemy anymore .

    When you say effect, do you mean having control over what the listener will feel?
    Yup, also just certain things on how it would strike the listener, not just the mood or emotion.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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    Senior Member Captainnumber36's Avatar
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    Not to mention the sheer joy of his music. There are certainly other emotions present, but it seems he always ends sunny side up!
    Last edited by Captainnumber36; Apr-09-2021 at 03:33.

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    Senior Member Captainnumber36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    Interesting that you feel this way. I tend to remain more engaged when listening to Beethoven because he usually develops much more his material, and I feel Mozart can get boring and laborious in some of his early operas (before Idomeneo and Die Entführung aus dem Serail), particularly because I'm not too fond of two or three hours of secco recitatives.
    I'm not trying to say Mozart is CERTAINLY the greatest, moreso throwing it out there as a suggestion because of what I'm attempting to describe in the OP. It's great you enjoy Beethoven, I mean not to offend. Cheers!

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    I agree. His success is a solid indication of his ingenuity and almost peerless invention and originality. I have read all of his surviving letters (translated into English) and it shows he wanted to write the best, the newest music for his audience and for his employer/patrons. Now of course he also wrote music for his own performance and for a smaller audience and for friends, including top professional musicians and composers. But Mozart wrote music for his audience, he did not alienate.

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    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    Of the three most revered classical composers, Bach, Beethoven and Mozart, Mozart is the least interesting to me. I much prefer Haydn.

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    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    Beethoven usually develops much more his material
    I don't think this is true. What Beethoven really came up with was new ways of development, and "greater space". I talked about this in Do you agree with Bernstein here?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2hUMqPdisA&t=8m40s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrlAyokyKGU&t=7m20s
    these can't really be compared with, for example:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QprTvKApc8c&t=8m3s
    in terms of use of counterpoint and thematic variation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    I feel Mozart can get boring and laborious in some of his early operas (before Idomeneo and Die Entführung aus dem Serail), particularly because I'm not too fond of two or three hours of secco recitatives.
    Two and three hours of secco recitatives? Are we listening to the same music?
    La finta giardiniera (all recitatives omitted): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhCorp9RgVM

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    Just a very sweeping thought, and I may be way off the mark, but maybe it is that Beethoven is like a dry red wine while Mozart is like Champaign. The masses will readily take to the sweetness of Champaign, but would have to develop a taste for dry wine.
    “Then he will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!'" Matthew 25:41 (Christian Standard Bible)

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