View Poll Results: Did the common practice era peak with Brahms or Rachmaninov?

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  • Common practice peaked with Brahms

    13 39.39%
  • Common practice ended with Rachmaninov

    7 21.21%
  • Other

    13 39.39%
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Thread: The Common Practice Era: Did it peak with Brahms, or Rachmaninov?

  1. #241
    Senior Member chu42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fbjim View Post
    What about Dvorak's American period works, then? The Humoresques have pretty evident proto-jazz/ragtime influences...
    Not enough to remove it from CPT in my opinion. But it's subjective. I would say Gershwin crosses the line for sure, Dvorak not so much.
    Last edited by chu42; Apr-22-2021 at 18:17.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by chu42 View Post
    Now about Jeremy Soule. Perhaps Soule represents an advance in "atmospheric" expression, but there is a very clear regression in harmonic expression. A lot of the chord progressions are repetitive and derivative, and the non-repetitive elements sound very much to me like watered down Sibelius.
    I think, yes, overall that is fair.

    Jeremy Soule and other recent composers show an advance in atmospheric expression and accessibility but the compositional structure is not as good as in the 19th century imo. So it has pros and contras.

    But it is maybe comparable with the translation from Baroque to the Classic. I think the Baroque was better in harmonics, polyphony and accessibility. But the Vienna Classic introduced new structures that are much better for "story telling" (per aspera ad astra etc.). And it really payed of with Beethoven and the Romantics later.

    So I hope that in the future some composers combine the new achievements in atmospheric expression and accessibility with the highly evolved compositional structure of the late romantic age. This would be really great.

  3. #243
    Senior Member Sid James's Avatar
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    The traditional diatonic system of harmony and form reached breaking point in the late 19th century. By the 1910's it was finished as a major force in Western classical music, being replaced by methods of composing which either disregard tonality or retain it in such a weak sense as to virtually make it a different thing altogether.

    So, in effect, the generation of Brahms was the beginning of the end, and that of Rachmaninov the end. His was the last generation to compose with reference to the rules of tonal harmony as a benchmark. An anecdote which relates to this is when Henry Cowell, a teenager at the time (c. 1930's), showed one of his piano scores to Rachmaninov. Cowell was already using tone clusters and Rachmaninov genuinely thought they where mistakes, counting around thirty or forty errors in harmony in the score. He tried to be encouraging to Cowell, saying that he made many mistakes at a similar age.

    While popular music and jazz have generally retained elements of traditional harmony more strongly than Western classical music, all types of music have come to reflect a diversity of approaches to composition. It could be said that the crisis of tonality wasn't so much a crisis but more of a readjustment to new realities - such as more music crossing borders, especially with the blending of Eastern and Western traditions, and this can also be related to the impact made by recording technology.
    Last edited by Sid James; Apr-23-2021 at 13:33.
    Genuine ersatz classical listener since 1981.

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  5. #244
    Senior Member Botschaft's Avatar
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    Brahms was the peak of the universe itself.

  6. #245
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
    I'd still be interested to see you cite some passages of Sibelius's symphonies (4-7) where he is riffing off of the big 3 or anyone else for that matter.
    To me, there are some similarities of idiomatic language:
    Holst - The Planets
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Isic2Z2e2xs&t=45m18s
    Sibelius symphony No.7
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mafCgCUjtLs&t=9m2s
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Apr-26-2021 at 08:08.

  7. #246
    Senior Member Fabulin's Avatar
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  9. #247
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Apr-26-2021 at 08:20.

  10. #248
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    Sibelius and Rachmaninov are stylistically within the confines of CP, but chronologically they're holdouts. They may have influenced some film score composers though.
    Rachmaninoff's influence on the next generation of Russian composers is pretty obvious. Early Myaskovsky symphonies, to some extent Prokofiev and Shostakovich as well.

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  12. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    To me, there are some similarities of idiomatic language:
    Holst - The Planets
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Isic2Z2e2xs&t=45m18s
    Sibelius symphony No.7
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mafCgCUjtLs&t=9m2s
    Maybe you are identifying the fact that both use a base pedal (though the Sibelius soon moves off). To my ears they are very different - to suggest that Sibelius is riffing off of (ie taking an idea and elaborating on it) Holst here is hard to accept for me.

  13. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabulin View Post
    Different harmony and melody - but, yes, both are in compound duple time (actually I think the Beethoven is in 3/4 though it does sound like 6/8).

    To riff-off is to take an idea and elaborate on it.

  14. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    Similar response as in my previous post. If you think they are similar then I can't really argue with your perception. I hear that both pieces use compound duple or triple time.


    ?

  15. #252
    Senior Member chu42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
    Similar response as in my previous post. If you think they are similar then I can't really argue with your perception. I hear that both pieces use compound duple or triple time.



    ?
    I don't get it either.

  16. #253
    Senior Member Couchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Botschaft View Post
    Brahms was the peak of the universe itself.
    The universe is then overrated. Where the universe ends, Wagner begins.
    Doch dieses Wörtlein: und, -wär' es zerstört,
    wie anders als mit Isoldes eignem Leben wär' Tristan der Tod gegeben?

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  18. #254
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janxharris View Post
    ?
    I was just saying that the Mendelssohn, Sibelius, Wagner, Liszt all utilize up/downward chromatic scales in unison to create agitated "feelings of fantasy"

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  20. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Couchie View Post
    The universe is then overrated. Where the universe ends, Wagner begins.
    Wagner begins and there is no end. It is not even allowed to end. It is the only resolve.
    Last edited by ArtMusic; Apr-28-2021 at 04:21.

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